During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
No one is "dismissing" what you're saying Ordeaux so kindly drop the accusations. We're pointing out these points were given to the OP who addressed them and we agreed the thread as a whole agreed the character kept. You're welcome to disagree but it's rude to imply myself and the others responding are just stamping down that he was kept when these points were brought up before and this "new" argument has left out relevant information that was acknowledged last time. You welcomed counterpoints and you've been given them.
Star's given you a good precedent as well, if the argument is "A story that doesn't negate mitigating factors presented in another part of the character's tale" then I don't think it's fair to argue for keeping the Joker but cutting Lanius.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 5th 2022 at 5:31:34 AM
Em, from what i read Lanius doesn't have a canon backstory, while the Fan Film depicts Lanius' origin, so isn't it automaticly non-canon?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Oct 5th 2022 at 12:31:29 PM
Technically it is non-canon by the fact it's a Fan Work not officially endorsed by Bethesda, the primary problem I have is that this film is meant to lead into the events of the game where Lanius has redeeming qualities.
![]()
It's more about context there. This film is meant to be a prequel, while the Injustice film is completely separate in multiple ways. The two situations are kind of similar on the surface but the context behind it is why I would argue Joker can be kept but Lanius can't.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 5th 2022 at 2:35:09 AM
I'm just gonna proffer that I don't see an issue if it's a fan interpretation. Canon, I would worry—that's how we cut Mama—but as is, with zero influence on the actual continuity of Vegas, it's this just seems an arbitrary and unnecessary thing to fret over.
Edited by Scraggle on Oct 5th 2022 at 3:37:31 AM
Okay my first ep was a bust, however I think I am ready to give it another shot and this in a spirit of season, kinda.
What is the work?
Star Wars: Republic is comic series running from 1998 to 2006, taking place in a twilight of the Galactic Republic. Primarily staring jedi master Quinlan Vos it also fleeshed out great number of prequel jedi. So, from Infiniti’s End arc the planet Ova is sucked into mysterious wormhole with jedi research pointing to planet Dathomir.
Who is candidate? What has she done?
Mother Zalem is powerful leader of Nightsister clan, in her younger age she Had enslaved a jedi knight, used his connection to the Force to enhance her own and had a daughter with him named Ros Lai. After mating she killed him as it was nightsister tradition, Ros Lai grew to hate her mother and used force to disguise herself as deformed hundback and plot revenge. Zalem ignored her daughter and let other nightsister torment and ever torture her while she focused on her plan.
Dathomir is also a homeworld of the Kwa, one of oldest species in a galaxy and The Precursors to much of galactic civilization. Zalem has her slaves dig up Kwa piramids planing to take of their greatest creation Infiniti Gate, planing to use it to destroy Coruscant the capital world of the Republic. She also has de-evolved descendants of The Kwa, The Kwi capured and mutilated in order for them to be able to control the gate.
Anyway Quinlan Vos is sent to Dathomir to investigate situation. Letting himself be captured and working on dig site where earthquakes frequently threaten lives of the slaves. Zalem becomes aware of his presence when he kills giant worm, a Genetically Engineered guardian of piramid who Zalem’s nightsisters provoked in attempt to breach a piramid. Questioning Vos she decides to have him injected with deathly parasite which will “set his nerves on fire”.
Luckily Ros Lai and slave Quinlan befriendes save him and Ros gives him an antidote in time. Venturing in piramid Zalem has a Kwi whose head she has cut out and implated with electric shockers activate Infiniti Gate sending destructive wawe on the Coruscant and killing the Poor creature. Heroes arive to confront her with Ros Lai faking loyallty before impaling Zalem and avenging her father.
Redeming features?
No just a power hungry witch, with no love for her daughter or anyone else.
Heinous standard?
Okay this part is little harder. Star Wars Legends has enormous standard not only with ones who already keep but bunch who don’t for one reason or another. Ultimately I do feel Zalem makes it, nightsister magic is not nearly as powerfull as jedi or sith and and they don’t normally posses spaceflight technology, thought Zalem does how a few not wery powerfull ships. So not only is her relationship with Ros Lai’s father all but staded to have involved rape and eventualno murder(thought it is nigsister tradition). She has slaves work in deadly conditions, let’s her clan abuse her daughter her whole life, has Kwi mutilated and tortured(while physically animalistic Kwi are still shown to be semi-sentient), and tries to have Coruscant( Legends sources state it population to be around 1 trillion) completelly destroyed. Now her daughter does attempt to let last one happen but I do feel the with all Kicked Dogs and doing most of work Zalem ultimately makes it.
Conclusion?
I give yes, anybody else.
While wait to here an opinion from someone with better knowledge of The old republic before I decide to vote on Zalem
Okay so I finally finished playing the latest expansion for Destiny 2 and I think I’ve got a candidate worth discussing so lets talk about it.
What’s the Work?
“The Witch Queen” is the sixth expansion for Destiny 2. The expansion focuses on the Arc Villain of the expansion, Savanthun, titular Witch Queen and current leader of the Hive, as she has stolen the Guardian’s light for herself and her forces forcing the Guardians to face her to prevent her from using the Light for her nefarious plan. However, Savanthun is not the candidate I’ll be discussing, but rather the villain that appears afterwards, Rhulk, The Disciple of the Witness.
Who is He? What has He done?
Rhulk is the being from the planet Lubrae which was ruled over by the Regime. Part of a clan called the Wanderers, Rhulk would first show his brutality that would horrify even his own family by slaughtering countless being, whether it’d be the The Regime’s soldiers, the stalkers, or innocent beings even having ripped apart a child’s pet at one point just to show off his brutality
Rhulk would eventually be exiled by his clan for the atrocities he committed and would later get arrested by the Regime and put on trial for this actions against them, where The Regime decided to recruit them to their army where Rhulk would carry out The Regime’s oppression over the people, with Rhulk killing any who opposes them, with Rhulk’s parent eventually trying to kill when it’d is made apparent on how evil Rhulk has become.
However Rhulk would survive the assassination attempt and was healed by The Witness where Rhulk would respond back by slaughtering his entire clan, from his parents who he decapitated to innocent children with a massacre so horrific that it horrified even the Regime who imprisoned him once more. However Rhulk would break free from his imprisonment where he would to destroy his planet Lubrae, wiping out his own kind from the universe.
Rhulk would then be revived by The Witness who then bestowed him the power of Darkness making Rhulk The First Disciple for him, where Rhulk would raise destruction wherever he go wiping out countless species and destroying countless planets usually using his powers and The Upended a device that was originally used to siphon power from Lubrae’s sun which Rhulk converted into his personal super weapon, which he first used to destroy his own planet.
However, one of Rhulk’s most monstrous acts would be the subjugation of the Worm Gods where he would kill the Leviathan horrifically, ripping out its ribs, before prisoning the Worm-God Xita, The Nurturing God, forcing her into serving him by threatening her children’s lives before imprisoning Xita and forcing Xita to mass produce worms essentially turning Xita into a Breeding Slave while also forcing her children to serve him by threatening to kill Xita.
Rhulk would send the worms he had mass produced to the shores of the Osmium Court where through Rhulk’s worms, The Witness with communicate with the race, Krill, where The Witness would lie to the Krill about a cataclysm, manipulating them into fleeing the Traveler and serve them, where Rhulk then infects the Krill with the parasitic worms transforming them into the undead and vicious Hive that would reek havoc and death across the Universe in the name of The Darkness.
Rhulk also tries his hand in manipulating a race into becoming servants of to Darkness and become an equal to The Witness and even replace them as the face of The Darkness. Rhulk would set his sights on the race Ahsild manipulating them into fighting each other leading to a nuclear war between the Ahslid which ends in the extinction of the Ahsild as a result of Rhulk’s machinations, with only one Ahslid, Unn, surviving.
Rhulk tries to convince Unn to becoming a disciple for the Darkness only for Unn to refuse and battle Rhulk which ends with Rhulk killing Unn and since the Ahsild wiped each other out, he’s unable to convert any into becoming servants of the Darkness, in which The Witness punishes Rhulk for the latter’s failures by assigning him to Savathûn's Throne World to watch over Savathun with Rhulk threatening to kill her and her kind should Savathun try to betray him and The Witness.
Before Rhulk could enact on his threat to kill Savathun and her brethren, Savathun used the Wellspring to trap Rhulk inside his own pyramid, though Rhulk was able to gain control of the Scorn and unleashes them onto Savathun’s Throne World to have them kill Savathun, The Hive under her command, and any Guardians that are on the Throne World.
When Savanthun is defeated the spell she cast on Rhulk begins to fade resulting in Rhulk being able to expand his influence luring a Guardian Raid team to his Pyramid while also gaining control of The Taken and sending them and the Scorn to attack raid team along with conducting horrific experiments on the Scorn using the Worms he had Xita mass produces to create twisted abominations he can use against the Guardians, with the Caretaker begin one such example.
The raid team would explore more of Rhulk’s pyramids containing artifacts and evidence of all Rhulk’s conquests, inducing Xita which he’s using to as a breeding slave for more worms and is currently using to power up his super weapon, the beings he killed including a Leviathan he kill as well as more victims he has on display and all other oddities detailing Rhulk’s atrocities, including a factory that mass produces worms that he uses to transform and control the Hive, Scorn, and other races.
The Raid team would finally come face to face with Rhulk who is finally free he would try killing the team before embarking on his departure from the Throne World to continue his bloodthirsty quest to cause destruction and death on a massive scale throughout the Solar System. Luckily the Raid team are able to defeat Rhulk after and long grueling battle where Rhulk transforms into a tree and dies, hopefully ending his reign of terror for good.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
Okay for Rhulk’s past, his planet was once blessed by the Traveler before turning into a dystopia dictatorship dubbed The Regime when the Traveler left. That said Rhulk wasn’t some unfortunate victim as pretty much everyone had to endure the Regime’s rule yet none of them turned into a bloodthirsty monster like him and it's never stated that The Regime cause Rhulk to become a monster but rather he's always been like this since he was born.
While his parents decided to betray and kill Rhulk it was only because of how horrified they are upon seeing Rhulk’s cruelty and brutality and feared that he would kill them and his clan, especially when he decides to join the Regime and oppress his own people.
Sadly their fears were proved right when Rhulk decides to massacre his whole clan ranging from his own parents to even innocent children who had nothing to do with Rhulk getting betrayed, and eventually take his petty rage onto his entire planet when The Regime becomes disgusted with Rhulk’s atrocities (yes an oppressive dictatorship was horrified by Rhulk’s actions) where he decides to blow up his own plannet, bringing his own kind to extinction out of petty spite.
While he regards honesty a virtue, willingly serving The Regime and The Witness because the were “honest” with him while hating his parents because they “lied” to him, This isn’t out of any standard against lying in general, but because Rhulk is a prideful and egotistical nihilist whose only concern if people are honest with him.
In fact, Rhulk himself having no problems lying or manipulating others partaking in The Witness’s lie to the Krill to get them to convert the Krill into becoming The Hive and even lying to Ahslid as part of Rhulk’s own attempt on manipulating a race into becoming servants of the Darkness and when the Ahslid killed each other off, Rhulk’s only concern was that he failed getting anyone to become servants of The Darkness and not out of any kind of remorse that his manipulations resulted in a innocent race becoming extinct and even manipulates a guardian raid team to come to his Pyramid before trying to kill him.
While he does seem loyal to The Witness, this isn’t because he genuinely likes or cares about The Witness as a person but because Rhulk sees The Witness as an extension of himself (it’s like how FANG worships M. Bison respectively) believing that The Witness represents the ruthlessness and nihilism Rhulk has towards the universe with Rhulk not wanting to serve The Witness forever and instead to their equal or replace him as a the physical face of The Darkness, which like with The Witness Rhulk’s doesn’t see as an entity but instead as an extension of Rhulk’s own nihilistic views on the world and that the Darkness should consume the universe just because Rhulk hates it for begin weak.
My only concern was that before he dies, Rhulk says to The Witness “forgive me”, though I believe that I can explain it in that this was during Rhulk’s punishment that The Witness subjected him to and his pleas to The Witness is more akin to begging them to give him mercy rather than declaring his loyalties to them and afterwards transforms into a tree rather than dying like everyone else, which brings into these speculations.
Either, The Witness may have killed him by turned him into a tree because they grown tired of Rhulk’s failures with Rhulk begging The Witness to spare him, Rhulk was begging The Witness for mercy could be that if Rhulk is still living as a tree, The Witness may decide to subject him into a worse fate, or that Rhulk is begging The Witness to come a save him, which they don’t. Either way Rhulk’s final words sounds much more like he’s begging The Witness to spare or save him rather than declaring any loyalty to them.
Heinousness
Really only The Witness may surpass Rhulk in terms of heinousness, but the former is basically an ancient entity with vast resources and is the Big Bad of the whose series responsible for almost everything bad happening in the series while Rhulk is just The Dragon to The Witness , and even so Rhulk is still very unique and horrific to still stand out and is considered the most evil amongst the disciples.
Being The Witness’s right hand man, Rhulk is responsible for a lot of bloodshed, destruction and death that occurs in the series including destroying his own planet and wiping out his own race, children included, forcing Xita into becoming a Breeding Slave and mass produce worms for him while forcing her children to commit atrocities in the Darkness’s name like helping The Witness manipulate the Krill into becoming The Hive, and uses the worms he has Xita mass produce to turn the Krill into the vicious and undead Hive that about making Rhulk responsible for all the lives and planets that they ravaged with one Hive, Xivu Arath, destroying a planet that the Cabal were living in.
Rhulk also has recruited beings into the Darkness’s force with Nezarec being one example whose actions led to the Eliksni becoming Fallen, manipulates an innocent race into going to war with itself resulting in it’s extinction, gains control of the Scorn which he horrifically experiments on turning them into even more horrifying abominations, and tries kill The raid team he lured into his Pyramid, with his pyramid containing trophies of all his beings and races he killed along with Xita who Rhulk kept in an And I Must Scream fate to fuel his superweapon, and is basically responsible for killing billions, so yeah I’d say he stands out.
Final Verdict?
I will leave the decision for you guys to decide.
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 6th 2022 at 10:33:20 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffTo get this out of the way:
Dread X Collection 5: Michael Krieger from We Never Left is an emotionally unstable programmer with a gigantic ego. Dreaming of creating "the greatest horror game of all times", Michael hated his coworkers at the video game company for not sharing his "vision" and calling him "creepy". Growing more and more obsessed with his game, to the point of lashing out at his psychiatrist, Dr. Miller, stalking her afterwards and then killing her and her husband, Michael started a killing spree, brutally murdering at least 5 more people and his own cat, solely to use their corpses as "props" for his "magnum opus". Arranging for his cousin to go to his house and investigate his "dissaperance", Michael manipulated him into playing through his games, after which he killed him and mutilated his body.
@ACW: The Witness is still on the wait-and-see list, still an active antagonist and is set to appear in the next expansion "Lightfall". Anywho I tried trimming Rhulk's EP a little
yes Savanthun is a WIE. She’s trying to protect the Traveler from The Witness, even if she’s trying to take it away from humanity
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 5th 2022 at 7:25:51 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffYou know what tentative
to Zalem for now and keep Lanius
Yeah apologies if this seems a bit long but I wanted to make sure that I got just about every detail on Rhulk to ensure why I think he counts and explain how his potential militating qualities and background gets is subverted or not militating at all. This may be my first EP to reach 2000 my eps are not that long but I’ll try to watch the word count next time if that what you guys want
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 5th 2022 at 9:55:25 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Rhulk
Mother Zalem
Michael Krieger
Thomas Newmeyer´
King Neo
—-
To G-Editor: I don't think so, when the Dark Leader reveals to be Piedmon, then everyone keeps calling him Piedmon until his death or Digievolution into Boltboutamon, which is explicitly Piedmon taking over Boltboutamon's body. Its not a actual alias, its just how he appears to the heroes before revealing himself.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 5th 2022 at 10:33:02 AM
Watch me destroying my countryTo answer Ordeaux 26's question, I can think of at least one more villain who tried to destroy Coruscant: Ashaar Khorda. He was a terrorist that attempted to destroy Coruscant with an artifact called the Infant of Shaa. He also mortally wounded the Jedi Master Yaraell Poof, who died stopping him. I do think Zalem is more heinous than him though.
I'd also contest Khorda is so nuts he truly thinks he's doing the right thing, given he's legit intending to die in the process.
Alright, with this all said and done, I have a relitigation based on extended editions.
The greatest and chiefest of calamities. The golden....
Smaug.
Who is Smaug?
An ancient dragon of tremendous power and rapacious avarice, Smaug the Golden grew aware, sometime in the Third age, of the mighty wealth of the dwarves of Erebor. It was then that Smaug arrived and obliterated the city of Dale, killing countless innocent people. Smaug advanced upon Erebor and absolutely annihilated it. Overnight, the proud home of the dwarves ceased to exist, Smaug slaughtering them to claim their treasure as his own, taking their chief symbol of leadership, the Arkenstone, as his very own...a trophy.
His goal achieved, Smaug slept for hundreds of years. The people of Dale rebuilt in Laketown, and the dwarves survived in exile, dreaming of the day they might return to retake their home and reclaim their gold. Gandalf the wizard eventually put together such a company in collaboration with the exiled dwarf king Thorin Oakenshield, a hero to their people....Gandalf began to fear that a darker power would locate Smaug and offer him more than the wizard ever could.
Oh, how right he was. The extended edition reveals that Smaug and Sauron are in collaboration and Smaug is itching to be unleashed, a vast array of death just waiting to ravage the free peoples of Middle Earth, with death coming to all...in the form of fiery dragon doom.
When Bilbo Baggins arrives, Smaug reveals he's fully aware of the dwarves and happy to see Thorin corrupted and hurt even worse...and blaming Laketown after the fight with the dwarves, Smaug nips off to destroy it with the memorable line:
"I am Fire. I am...Death."
Smaug ravages Laketown, even gleefully declaring that he will kill the warrior, Bard's son, before him first...but Bard, seeing Smaug's one weakpoint, uses his ancestral weapon, the black arrow, and deals a fatal blow to Smaug, who manages to fly into the sky...before the light goes out, and the great dragon plummets to the lake below, never to rise anew.
Mitigating issues?
Well, previously it's heinousness, but the extended editions have a few lines to make some things clearer. Smaug is responsible for wiping out two cities (with a LOT of death there)...along with trying to kill everyone in Laketown....Gandalf only speculates Smaug will join Sauron in the theatricals...
The extended editions confirm it. Smaug has already joined with Sauron and it's implicit and explicit in different dialogue he's going to sweep over the north and bring death. And he's excited for it. That amps his nastiness up. A lot...from just a dragon who sat on his ass, to an active servant of the Dark Lord in ways to rival the mass murdering Azog.
No good qualities, either. Obviously. The movies make Smaug not just greedy, but sadistic. He's overly and violently cruel, who knows his enemies personally and delights in their anguish and corruption.
Conclusion?
At long last...
Yes. Not the strongest keep, but yes thanks to the extended Editions.

And Crow mentioned that the movie changed Lanius’s character decently enough to be considered an AU, so what’s the issue here?