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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#325777: Oct 5th 2022 at 12:10:38 PM

Michael...does this have "the bad guy wins, he's unstoppable, etc." problem other works have, or is this an actual told story?

Yes to Newmeyer and Neo.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#325779: Oct 5th 2022 at 12:12:22 PM

[up][up] Since it's part of a collection that isn't a problem no matter what. That only applies if that is the entire plot, not simply a part of it.

[tup] Micheal, Thomas and Descal

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 5th 2022 at 12:12:44 PM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#325780: Oct 5th 2022 at 12:14:28 PM

[up][up][up]You're welcome to watch the walkthrough that i have posted to see for yourself. But the plot follows investigation and we learn bit by bit of what happened there, we solve puzzles and there is even some side activity. The game is about discovery and slowly unraveling of what is happening. So yeah. It isn't "torture porn" if that's what you're asking,

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Oct 5th 2022 at 10:14:37 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#325781: Oct 5th 2022 at 12:16:59 PM

[tup]Michael and King Neo Descal.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#325782: Oct 5th 2022 at 12:26:50 PM

[tup] Michael, Newmeyer and King Neo Descal.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#325783: Oct 5th 2022 at 12:31:17 PM

[tup] Michael, A Rare Sentence/guy with an army of terminator milkmen and king Neo Descal.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#325784: Oct 5th 2022 at 1:01:31 PM

[tup] to Michael, Newmeyer and King Neo Descal.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#325785: Oct 5th 2022 at 1:28:06 PM

So there is an entry currently on the Fan Works page that I take issue with.

  • Fallout: New Vegas fan prequel Lanius: The titular Legate Lanius is a bloodthirsty One-Man Army of the Hidebarks who's feared within his tribe for believing that only fighting and killing are the answer to their problems. After the Caesar's Legion decides to assimilate the Hidebarks into their ranks, Lanius begins killing their soldiers by himself and taking their heads as trophies, and when the tribe surrenders to spare themselves from death, Lanius slaughters a Frumentarii and several of his own people before finally being subdued. Joining the Legion to continue killing people but in Caesar's name instead, Lanius is visited by his lover Quill and gouges her eye out before turning her into his very first slave. Forcing the remaining men of his tribe to fight him, Lanius massacres them and beheads the only person who had been nice to him, proudly admitting that he leaves the world with nothing but blood and dust.

Now if this was it's own film with a completely original character I would have no issue with Lanius qualifying, or even if the story is separate from the rest of the Fallout universe.

The issue I have is that it is stated completely unambiguously in the description of the YouTube video that this is meant to be a origin story for Lanius that ties into the game. In the game, Lanius has a genuine sense of honor and is able to be talked down. The film doesn't really remove those redeeming qualities that he showcases it just never gets the chance to showcase them as this is set during a different time. It is technically a Fan Work that isn't canon to the series, but considering how much it's attached to the source work as an origin story it's really hard for me to be willing to ignore the games.

This being up really feels like a loophole to me. If this was a canon prequel there is no way that this would get approved. And allowing this up to me really feels like stretching how much we are willing to divorce Fan Works from canon. Fan Works while they are still made by fans are often meant to still be compatible with the original source.

Maybe others will disagree but those are my thoughts.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#325786: Oct 5th 2022 at 1:35:35 PM

Crow discussed this during his effort post for the character. On phone and can't easily grab the post but I very much remember the canon issue being discussed.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#325787: Oct 5th 2022 at 1:51:43 PM

Crow indeed did:

"Lanius has more than one origin story in canon, and contradictory information from several characters suggest that the Start of Darkness we see here is simply one of many; since his Affably Evil and Noble Demon qualities are non-existent in the film and the fact that he's given Adaptational Villainy (aka blinding and enslaving his own lover For the Evulz), i did consider it an AU. "

Not really seeing any reason to not Keep Lanius now as we did then for this reasoning. Keep.

Edited by Ravok on Oct 5th 2022 at 1:52:21 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#325788: Oct 5th 2022 at 1:54:10 PM

I did find the original post I can see where he is getting at. At the same time though I am not sure if this is enough to classify it separately. In canon his backstory may be unknown but this film is presenting this as his true backstory. He isn't really Affably Evil and a Noble Demon in canon either, he just has a sense of honor, and there is nothing in the game as far as I am aware that says he didn't bind and enslave his lover.

The main thing is that it is directly stated in the description of the video that this is meant to be an origin story, it says it completely unambiguously.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#325789: Oct 5th 2022 at 1:54:23 PM

Thanks for nabbing, it seems too iffy in connection on that note to cut on.

My issue is it's a point Crow already argued against, I think I might have actually downvoted myself but I don't like the idea of pulling based on an argument that was already countered.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 5th 2022 at 4:55:31 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#325790: Oct 5th 2022 at 1:59:06 PM

It wasn't brought up in the original discussion that the description of the video outright says that this is meant to be an origin story. That is my main point of contention. Sure there are probably some differences, but the intention is very clearly meant to be that this is an origin story for Lanius. And allowing this up when Lanius had redeeming qualities later, feels kind of like a loophole to me.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#325791: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:02:29 PM

Random question - I was checking out the FAQ and saw this entry:

  • May I nominate characters from my own work?: In a word, no. You're biased. Get someone to read your work and let them propose the candidate if they feel it's appropriate.

It's accurate, but I feel like there's a larger site-wide reason we can touch on here - creators aren't allowed to add YMMV to their own work's pages in general, and since this is a YMMV trope, the same principle applies. I feel like it could read like this instead:

  • May I nominate characters from my own work?: In a word, no. Complete Monster is a YMMV trope and creators are not allowed to add YMMV tropes to their own work's pages. You can ask someone else to read your work and let them propose any characters they deem appropriate; however, you may not vote in any resulting discussion.

No hill to die on here, but I'm just curious if this could work a little better since it ties into the site-wide reason creators can't propose their own work. Thoughts?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#325792: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:03:08 PM

From the effort post: "As the name suggests, the film serves as the origin story of Legate Lanius".

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#325793: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:14:30 PM

That isn't really addressing it, it's more just briefly mentioning it. If people want to vote keep that is fine but I feel like this warrants more discussion rather than it just being immediately dismissed because it was already brought up.

I brought up some points here countering Crow's original points.

I also feel like keeping this up would be a bit weird. We have rejected multiple Fan Works characters because they don't properly contradict their redeeming qualities from canon and they are meant to be in line with canon. The most recent being that fanfic version of The Core/Darcy. So I don't understand why this would be any different.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 5th 2022 at 2:20:40 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#325794: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:16:57 PM

Abstaining after thinking about it. Is there a new argument there that was not used?

But the argument on the latter I feel is weak since it was already established in canon that the Core has legitimate issues towards counting.

Edited by AustinDR on Oct 5th 2022 at 2:20:25 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#325795: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:18:39 PM

[up][up] That link you posted goes to an "Edit Post" section, which just goes to a blank page

And I mean, like... it was brought up in the EP, questioned by another user, addressed by the OP, and then voted up. Not all discussions require a page of back-and-forth to be settled

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 5th 2022 at 5:20:02 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#325797: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:21:44 PM

[up][up] Ops my bad, fixed that.

I don't know how it would suddenly make a massive difference that this is a prequel while that is a sequel, those two things are pretty similar, just one happens in the past while the other is the future.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#325798: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:23:01 PM

I mean, for an inverse, what's stopping us from cutting Injustice (2021)'s Joker when his redeeming quality is in a prequel comic that the movie doesn't contradict? Sometimes we take things as their own work, this isn't unheard of before

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 5th 2022 at 5:24:30 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#325799: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:26:32 PM

I really don't like the insinuation here that even if we decide to Keep Lanius, it's somehow a "loophole", tbh.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#325800: Oct 5th 2022 at 2:27:39 PM

The primary reason that was kept was due to the fact that the universe and story are significantly changed and is set in a separate universe from the main Injustice universe. This one is meant to be a direct prequel to Fallout New Vegas.


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