During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I will vote
on Maltruant and the Creepy Pasta example.
I have got an proposal for a character that I am not quite sure about, but I like to open it the floor none the less.
Time Master was the Big Bad of the first Freedom Force game. Now the Freedom Force is an Affectionate Parody of Silver Age comic books and the series has a lot of humor and satire, with things like Patriotic Fervor and the Red Scare being Played for Laughs, as well as the characters delivering very silly dialogue very seriously. But there genuine melodrama in this series as well, two different heroes do Heroic Sacrifices at the end of each game (there were only two games in the series), loved ones die in some of the heroes' back stories.
Who is Time Master? What Has He Done?
Time Master is the Big Bad of the first Freedom Force game. As his name suggests, he is in charge of the time stream, but he cannot stop his own aging process. Wishing to become Immortal, he plans to destroy the Celestial Clock the thing that regulates time itself. Destroying the clock would make him immortal, but it would also destroy most of the space time continuum.
Is he heinous by the standards of the work?
Well there is another Omnicidal Maniac in the series, a creature called Entropy, who was also planning on destroying reality, but she is the Superpowered Evil Side of a hero who absorbed some Time Master's power and wasn't dealing with it well. No other villain can match Time Master in power and some of the villains are pretty silly. A super villain who makes clones of himself and rhymes, a mad architect who wants to knock down buildings that offend his sensibilities, etc.
Does he have a Freudian Excuse or other sympathetic qualities?
No, he is just supremely selfish and would sacrifice anything for his own immorality. He is a coma for most of the second game, so he doesn't do much, till Freedom Force summons him to fight Entropy. He agrees to fight Entropy, because if she destroys reality, he will die too. But after Entropy is defeated, he turns on the Freedom Force right away, wanting revenge on them for foiling his previous scheme and wanting to gain back the power Entropy took from him.
In conclusion, Time Master is a rather tricky character to judge. He has no sympathetic qualities and his plan is certainly heinous enough, but is the setting of the games too silly for a CM to be present? Also he doesn't get much of a opportunity to do anything really bad in the second game.
edited 14th Nov '14 5:51:42 PM by TheOverlord
on the Dating Game woman. Abstaining on Maltruant. I don't actually find he stands out compared to Vilgax or Aggregor, but I'm leaning
if not just for the destruction of the universe. If bringing back the universe in his image includes restoring all life that he also kills,
. Otherwise... I'll wait for the other tropers to make some points first.
Regardless, time for me to bring up my own candidate: Donovan, from an obscure telefilm called Nature of the Beast. Not the 1995 film, but a different one entirely.
Who is he?
Donovan is an alpha werewolf and the Big Bad of the film, someone along the lines of Claude and Eddie Quist. Donovan is unique amongst werewolves in that not only can he change form at will, he retains all humanity and thought while doing so. Why that's monstrous is detailed below.
What has he done?
Donovan's initially introduced as a normal college professor who knows the protagonist, Rich. He reveals his true nature pretty early on by shifting into werewolf form and killing Rich's best friend. He then proceeds to bite Rich, turning him into a werewolf with no control over his transformations or actions while he does so. Why does he do this? For the Evulz. He'd be excused if he didn't have complete control over his actions while he was a werewolf, so he's doomed a man to a Fate Worse than Death shortly after murdering his friend for thrills.
Later, Donovan attends a party which is occurring shortly before the reception of Rich and his fiance Julia. He once again strikes, forcefully turning Rich into a werewolf and trying to make him kill Julia's entirely family in front of her. When Rich manages to resist, Donovan attempts to corrupt him into becoming someone like him, to give him eternal life at the cost of the wanton slaughter of innocents, something Donovan is very heavily implied to have been doing (he killed a man simply because he wanted his house, for one). Once Rich rejects him, Donovan discards him and attempts to kill Julia and her family himself.
Any mitigating factors or Freudian Excuse?
Donovan, as an alpha werewolf, has little to no motive from his constant torment to Rich aside from for the thrills. However, it's suggested he wants a brother in the form of a "beta" werewolf. He later completely negates this statement seeing as states he prefers to hunt alone, rendering all his torment towards Rich completely meaningless and for his own thrills. Aside from that, he's got no Freudian Excuse, no redeeming qualities, and being the Big Bad means he sets the heinous standard.
Final verdict?
Implied mass murder, one onscreen murder, more attempted mass murder, a constant cycle of torment against Rich involving cursing him to a Fate Worse than Death and trying to corrupt him (which would lead itself to more mass murder) and he's generally completely Ax-Crazy on top of that. I believe he's a keep.
Any thoughts?
edited 14th Nov '14 7:47:48 PM by Scraggle
Sounds like a universal-scale Jacques. No problem giving a
if he himself is not Played for Laughs.
A long time ago we voted up Rikako from Psycho-Pass. I just saw the episodes she's in, and I'd have to say, I disagree with her qualifying. She appears to care about her father, whose work she is obsessed with replicating (Hell, his picture is the background of her phone), and Makashima claims that she's doing what she does because she loved her father. Now, Makashima's a lying weasel most of the time, which makes his word suspect as heck, but the thing is, I'm not sure why he'd lie here. He's not trying to excuse her actions to the police, or help her rationalize them, or anything of the sort. He's just describing her to the guy whom he eventually sends to kill her. I'll also note that having your father collapse into a coma because societal changes caused him to lose the will to live, is a heck of a Freudian Excuse, and certainly explains her anger at society.
Anyway, she's a borderline enough case that I don't really care whether she stays or goes, and have little interest in arguing about it. Just want to change my long-ago vote to a no (heck, I don't even remember if I voted or abstained It's been a long time).
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I'll give that one a yes.
EDIT: Would give Time Master a yes vote, especially since it sounds like the only character in the setting who can match him is somebody he played at least a partial role in creating.
edited 14th Nov '14 10:46:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
The reason I disagree with Ambar is I feel the episode shows Rikako as obsessed with his work, but caring little for the man himself.
That said, Rikako's crimes go beyond disproportionate to society: she drugs, rapes, slaughters and dismembers girls largely for the pleasure of it, to recreate artwork. It's made quite clear she enjoys this for its own sake. I'd also note Makishima is quite unreliable at the best of times, whether he's lying or because he's twisted enough to be unable to adequately define love.
Hold on, Cos Dashit??? ![]()
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I'll
Donovan.
Ambar, the new season of Elementary has started. Anything happened yet to disqualify/confirm Moriarty yet?
edited 15th Nov '14 12:46:57 AM by ACW
Not yet to my knowledge.
Honestly, given how unanimous Rikako's upvote was last time (I remember myself, Exister, Sterok and a few others who'd seen the series itself) upvoting her, Makishima and Senguji, I don't think anything new would be presented.
Now, my opinion comes from how Rikako seems emotionally detached from her father, and mentions his artwork, but seems to have no love or respect for the man himself- only his twisted artwork. The other issue is Makishima, but Rikako doesn't really act towards him with anything more than most of devotees: Makishima possesses a particularly dark charisma that lures in budding killers who worship him with rather dark zeal. Still, none of them seem to genuinely care about him in a redeeming way, more viewing him as the personification of the antithesis of the system they hate. The only one who actually cares for Makishima on a personal level is his right-hand man who seems to view him as a friend (The guy's pretty far off from consideration anyways).
Rikako acts detached from everything except murder., which she approaches with a rather disturbing glee. She takes special delight in luring in her classmates, raping (she's shown naked in bed with one victim after drugging her) and murdering them before doing up the remains, which is one of the few things that provokes a real smile. It also lends further credence to her father being an excuse as all she does is mimic the art. She doesn't go after society like Makishima does. She's a two-bit philosopher wannabe who's a depraved serial killer with delusions of grandeur.
Furthermore, Makishima's comments are to be taken with a grain of salt. He's a genuine sociopath who understands the human psyche but occasional makes errors in how he perceives emotions. A notable example is how he believes the hero is attached to Makishima on a personal level, while Shinya has nothing but absolute hatred towards the man himself.
edited 15th Nov '14 1:05:30 AM by Lightysnake
I will give a
to Donovan.
I think the only other villain from Freedom Force that could be a monster is Nuclear Winter, one of the communist villains. In the first game, he is trying to steal a nuclear weapon for the USSR, when the heroes thwart him, he plans on setting off the bomb in the Patriot City (the city where most of the game takes place). In the second game he tries to start a nuclear war between the USA and the USSR, so he can rule over what remains of the planet after both sides destroy each other. Now he can't match Time Master in terms of scale, he is a not a cosmic villain. I suppose you could argue he is as bad as his resources allow.
The problem with him is, like I said the Red Scare aspect of the communist villains is taken to an extreme for the sake of humor. He wears a big furry Russian hat with a red star and says ridiculous things like "By Lenin's Ghost". He also makes ice puns, being a cold based villain. His minions seems far more silly then he does, they seem to be complete parodies of old Silver Age communist villains.
But you could argue Nuclear Winter is somewhat silly villain who crosses the Moral Event Horizon, rather a true monster, I would not go to bat for him the way I would Time Master.
But that also means no other villain can match these two.
edited 15th Nov '14 7:20:32 AM by TheOverlord
Well I would argue when he does something villainous it is meant to be taken seriously, I don't think him setting off nukes and trying to start WWIII was meant to be funny. But there is a lot humorous moments with him too, with the over the top dialogue (though most characters have over the top dialogue in this series), the way he dresses with the big Russian hat, etc. I would argue his minions are sillier then he is, they have even more ridiculous dialogue. His actions in trying to start WWIII seem serious enough that another communist villain, Red Oktober, switches sides and helps you defeat him. Though the way he gets the nukes in the second game is a bit silly, with him using time travel to steal nukes from the Cuban missile crisis.
These games are an Affectionate Parody of Silver Age comics, so while a lot of things are played for laughs, the games are very earnest and has quite a few moments of serious melodrama. But these games often straddle the line between serious and silly.
Though I find it a bit hard to judge how serious Nuclear Winter is supposed to be.
edited 15th Nov '14 8:35:37 AM by TheOverlord
@ACW: Moriarty sadly couldn't make it to the season premier after all. I still think her Season 2 appearance clearly gives her a
, but for now she's still a wretched human being who *might* have some redeeming qualities.
Not sure about Maltruant. The show didn't really treat him as seriously as some other villains like Malware or Proctor Servantus.
edited 15th Nov '14 8:38:32 AM by AnewMan
I would like to suggest Roland Daggett from Batman The Animated Series: He doesn't appear as often as Batman's other baddies, but there's no denying how much of an evil bastard he is. He forced a disfigured actor to commit crimes for him in exchange for his highly-addictive face cream and force feeds him it in an attempt to kill him after he failed, leading to the creation of the DCAU incarnation of Clayface. Then there was his plan to blow up Crime Alley all just to build an apartment complex, not caring about the people living there. In his third appearance, he infects stray animals into vicious beasts and pre-made a cure just so he could be hailed as a hero.

edited 14th Nov '14 3:47:42 PM by ACW