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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#324726: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:21:58 PM

[up] The thing I am seeing is that Brett doesn't seem to be a typical pawn she seems to be an independent assassin working with Strongheart for her own ends. And she isn't just a helper she is the one directly carrying out all of the killings on her own.

The Hardy Boys

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:22:34 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#324727: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:26:04 PM

I mean, maybe? Is she a Psycho for Hire or does she only kill on his orders?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#324728: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:31:53 PM

I'm abstaining on Brett. The idea that most of her past as an assassin is just backstory still sorta rubs me me the wrong way because the other sixteen victims she has beyond the two named and identified are just that—numbers. But it's also slightly more than what Redd White gets; we actually have a numbered victim count, and it's significantly over what most of the other villains in the series get to. Compare her to other assassins-for-hire in the series like Shelley de Killer or Sirhan Dogen, and the difference is palpable.

For the record I've permanently decided against Redd White, if anyone's still waiting on that. Even with looser rules on Offstage Villainy I completely agree with the consensus of the previous debates; we know he's targeted "hundreds" of people with his blackmail, but beyond two or three mentions of those leading to suicide, we have no firm idea of his victim count. And I'm particularly emphatic that these crimes should contribute in some way to the story because Ace Attorney as a setting is all about investigating and prosecuting these crimes.

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:33:58 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#324729: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:33:37 PM

I mean yeah I will have to say if Brett is rejected I can't see any way for Redd White to keep. And yeah I don't really agree with him keeping either having thought about it more.

Also yeah ACW she is a assassin outside of Strongheart.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:34:13 AM

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#324730: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:34:08 PM

[up][up][up]She seems rather psychopathic in nature. While she doesn't absolutely show that she's a psychopath, she spends the whole trial more concerned about mocking the japenese and their way of life rather than the murder itself, whom she does try to wiggle out of, even when she knows she could just admit it and get away with it cause of the rules that she can't be put to trial on Japenese ground.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:34:49 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#324731: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:39:41 PM

Incidentally, I could PROBABLY nitpick if some are worse than others for Casefiles, but considering we've got 9 out of 120+, I think we're probably good there. Hell, In Death currently has 15 (though one's a duo) out of 66 works, and there are easily think of at least 5 who are probably heinous enough but have mitigating factors (either loved ones or a Freudian Excuse or something).

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#324732: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:39:50 PM

Abstain on Brett.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#324733: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:48:14 PM

I'm gonna be honest, the EP feels a little all over the place and Scraggle's quick summation of her killings was much more helpful for me to understand what she did and musing on whether or not she qualifies as a psychopath isn't really answering ACW's question. She's got two murders and a past of 16? This doesn't seem so disembodied from the rest of the franchise I'm inclined to say it can ignore the heinous standard unless I'm missing something so I'll probably pull the phantom who's writeup tells me he'll attempt to kill hundreds. If that's the bar set by Psycho for Hire/Professional Killer or whatever types we'd like to call her, I find myself hard pressed to see her meeting the standard.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#324734: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:53:57 PM

In fairness The Phantom is the exception rather than the norm, most Ace Attorney villains even including someone like Garan kill far less than 16.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#324735: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:55:27 PM

We also don't want a "second worst" on the list. To my understanding the others occupy different niches and as a hired killer I don't see her doing anything to distinguish herself.

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#324736: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:56:17 PM

Well see that's the thing, The Phantom has a lot of tools at his disposal that did include bombs as well as other futuristic trinkets. Also, isn't like the possible victims of the explosions (there were two) simular to this case?

They both work on different conditions, and it would be unecesary to kill more than just the ones she does.

(also, apologies if the EP was a bit confusing)

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:58:49 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#324737: Sep 23rd 2022 at 3:58:10 PM

Yeah that is also something to take into account, Brett is in a very different time period she does not have access to the same king of technology that enabled the crimes of The Phantom.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#324738: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:00:36 PM

Earnestly of these arguments the only one I see as holding water is the time period. The phantom aiming to kill more people to get away with his crimes is irrelevant and close enough to her working as a hitwoman killing off her targets. It's not like one's committing torture or enacting oppression. I see the argument but I'd like to keep this focused.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#324739: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:07:22 PM

Honestly, the thing with Brett isn't necessarily the QUANTITY (16 seems more than enough), so much as just how involved she is. Like, if she kills the 16 because she enjoys it, I'd more easily vote yes. I mean, the Phantom and Ga'Ran have such higher body counts than the others I think.

(Though that not wanting a second worst is the reason I asked Ravok to look at one of my In Death keepers versus one who doesn't keep.)

Edited by ACW on Sep 23rd 2022 at 7:09:20 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#324740: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:08:46 PM

Not technically sadism but from what I can tell her primary motivation is racism.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#324741: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:12:26 PM

Uh I dunno about Brett. I'll see this full conversation.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#324743: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:14:54 PM

Guys. Don't forget about mine. Mind voting on mine.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#324744: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:34:43 PM

Yes to Ethan. Abstain on Brett.

Has the Darna franchise ever been brought up here before. I was thinking of looking through it after Twitter got me hooked on the 2022 series. I couldn't find it by searching but want to be sure.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#324745: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:40:45 PM

Abstain on Brett

Could I call discussion on Don't hug me I'm scared? Did not see anyone else claim it

Bow to the Prototype
SuperYoshiFan02 Since: Sep, 2020 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
#324746: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:42:50 PM

Sorry for the late response (I’ve been busy all day), but the Amphibia fanfic doesn’t really present Darcy as becoming someone new by fully embracing the Darcy persona. I thought it did but after checking it, it seems I misinterpreted the fic. Yeah, I agree that this Darcy isn’t a CM now.

The sequel is halfway done and unless something really unexpected happens, it’s antagonist will probably count as a CM so I’ll make another post then. He’s a single individual, for the record.

Edited by SuperYoshiFan02 on Sep 23rd 2022 at 7:43:33 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#324747: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:51:58 PM

Getting this over with real quick, my own Primal:

The Night Feeder.

Who is the Night Feeder?

A ferocious dinosaur (and I will, btw, know who didn't read this EP because I am saying right here to steam it: I am proposing it because season 2 elaborated FAR more on dinosaur sapience than S1) that blends in with the night and favors slaughter for its own sake. The Night Feeder enjoys killing for its own sake, slaughtering its way through multiple dinos, including a smilodon whose mutilated remains Spear and Fang later find.

Fang panics at the scent and tries to remove them from the territory, but that night, the Night Feeder locates a herd of herbivores and for pure fun, massacres them without feeding. Spear later finds the torn apart remains, left as food for birds.

With immense bloodshe,d the Night Feeder then locks in on Fang and Spear, stalking them little by little and trying to draw out their deaths until Spear, by chance, strikes a spark with his spear. The resulting fire spreads and the Night Feeder is eventually consumed by the blaze.

Mitigating issues?

As said before: season 2 elaborates. Dinosaurs are fully sapient and most only kill for food. Fang isn't alone in how she thinks: her later mate, Red, is just as intelligent as she is, and other dinosaurs are seen to showcase them as thinking, intelligent beings.

Meaning the Feeder is a ferocious, cruel serial killer who does this for kicks, something explicitly confirmed. It doesn't even eat its kills, massacring an entire herd for sport.

For one fuck off dinosaur, it's pretty nasty.

Conclusion?

Keep.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#324748: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:54:23 PM

That's an easy Yes to the Night Feeder as we discussed for this surprise Primal proposal! Season 2 absolutely expands on the dinos and introducing someone like Red who is also a murderous beast...but has clear redeeming features and primarily kills for food? On top of everything else really pushes home how awful the Feeder is. Great work!

Nay to Brett, methinks.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#324749: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:55:38 PM

[tup] for the Night Feeder.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#324750: Sep 23rd 2022 at 4:56:32 PM

And to think he was once thought not to have any moral agency before season 2 came along, [tup] to the Night Feeder.


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