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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#324226: Sep 18th 2022 at 10:56:03 AM

Would like to know what people think on this quote.

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#324227: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:00:25 AM

Quote's good

[up][up]Was Dogson given a first name in the og film, because if he was then there's no point in not including it in the comic since he's the same character.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#324228: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:05:35 AM

Dodgson's first name is never spoken in the first film either, Nedry only every refers to him as "Dodgson".

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#324229: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:13:59 AM

Sure to Terra.

Sum: Please add to the Drafts,

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#324230: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:14:51 AM

Also good for the quote, and yes to our first of the Carter baddies, it's actually Scraggle who will have the follow-up, there.

Dodgson's first name is Lewis. This is common knowledge and accepted by everyone, even the Villains Wiki article we want to use as "proof" still calls him Lewis. It doesn't matter if the comic doesn't explicitly spell it out, it's the character's name and removing it is literally pointless. We wouldn't call a Superman fanfic version of Lex Luthor just "Luthor" if that's all the fanfic called him—inference is a thing. I say leave it in

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Misry6 Imperfect Disgrace from the Eternal Nothingness Since: Nov, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Imperfect Disgrace
#324231: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:21:24 AM

Agreed. I also don't understand why his entry had to be completely changed like that as it seemed to have looked fine before.

I've updated all the Middle-earth CM entries on the YMMV sections and the Monster Tolkiens Legendarium sandbox page. It should be good to go now.

Edited by Misry6 on Sep 18th 2022 at 11:40:51 AM

Just an empty void…
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#324232: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:31:33 AM

Well, according to the entry, he is never said to be a Biosyn executive- should we infer that too?

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#324233: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:42:15 AM

Actually, did Dodgson need a rewrite in the first place? The old write ups gets the point across perfectly well and the rewrite doesn't really improve anything.

Old

New

  • Mr. Dodgson himself, who previously caused the first Jurassic Park incident by paying Nedry to steal dinosaur embryos, returns as a game warden at Tim's new Jurassic Park, but is secretly working for Ludlow. Torturing the dinosaurs under his care, Dodgson gleefully participates in the murder of Dr. Wu by allowing a predator to rip him apart and helps release the dinosaurs to kill countless innocents in Texas.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#324234: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:42:23 AM

Removing that he's a corporate executive is fine if we want to press it since it's not important to the comic, but the full name of a character should be warranted when we know for an absolute fact what it is. Earnestly I'm kind of echoing pap on this, his original write-up gets things across just fine.

Like, this is exactly what I'm talking about when people need to chime in on rewrites and not just add them to the drafts and ACW use them willy-nilly (which isn't his fault, he's very busy). Looking back, barely anyone actually voted for a rewrite, and the few who even commented on it pointed out issues with it. Lighty's original write-up is perfectly decent, leave it be, says I.

Edited by Ravok on Sep 18th 2022 at 11:45:03 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#324235: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:45:32 AM

Yeah, I think we can just assume he’s still a Biosyn executive.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#324236: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:47:55 AM

I don't really see a point to the rewrite, but even if we use it I cannot think of a reason not to include his first name, I think every wtite up should mention the character's full name at least once and it's not exactly a wild take that his first name is Lewis

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#324237: Sep 18th 2022 at 12:02:35 PM

I actually agree about names...if they're used.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#324239: Sep 18th 2022 at 12:06:30 PM

I think it's splitting hairs for us to say "we don't know if his first name is Lewis" in this version, he's an adaption of a character named Lewis Dodgson I think it's reasonable to think this is also named Lewis Dodgson here too

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#324240: Sep 18th 2022 at 12:12:26 PM

I am fine with adding back his first name but maybe remove the mention of him being a corporate executive since that factor is made unclear in the first film and it seems like a bit of a bigger inference than just his first name. It also isn't super important.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#324241: Sep 18th 2022 at 12:57:12 PM

In Dominion, he's named Lewis and he's basically the same character from the first film—outright confirmed by the Barbasol can of course.

Anything new to discuss with the More Fun Stuff Edition of No Way Home?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#324242: Sep 18th 2022 at 1:10:20 PM

Honestly revert back to the old entry. The change as feels way too small to be worth a full on rewrite

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#324243: Sep 18th 2022 at 1:19:29 PM

@Future

Was not able to see it sadly, ill try asking Star later

Bow to the Prototype
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#324244: Sep 18th 2022 at 1:22:19 PM

@Future: Nope. Unless I missed something pretty major, Goblin doesn't have anything added to his character, so he's still a no-go.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#324245: Sep 18th 2022 at 1:30:27 PM

Here's the original post about the Dodgson rewrite.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#324246: Sep 18th 2022 at 1:34:49 PM

Umh this is a sequel to the first film though?

Where Dodgson was Hammond's corporate rival

Why would we need to assume he isn't?...

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#324247: Sep 18th 2022 at 1:39:35 PM

Hey, I'm just the messenger here.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#324248: Sep 18th 2022 at 1:41:07 PM

Wasn't he still just a high ranking employee at that point? I thought he was only a CEO by Dominion.

I agree trying to remove the part that calls him Lewis is pointless. And to clarify I wont fight for a change if its deemed unnecessary

Edited by Snoketrope on Sep 18th 2022 at 1:42:33 AM

Bow to the Prototype
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#324249: Sep 18th 2022 at 2:07:26 PM

[tup] to Lily Weatherwax/Lilith de Tempscire, Freddy Krueger, the Fraser Barton Colborne quote, Sab Than, and Terra.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#324250: Sep 18th 2022 at 2:10:41 PM

Honestly let's just leave Dodgson, I think this is a matter taking up enough posts that didn't need to be raised in the first place.


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