During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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Actually ACW there is one more solution that just came to mind to solve the placement issue. We currently have 22 examples (including this new one) from Fan Films so we could make that a separate page. Could be another good way to fix the space issues we always have with the Fan Works page, not fully sure though on this idea.
Thinking about it more I don't feel their is enough for now, maybe another time.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 12th 2022 at 10:56:31 AM
No to Brian De Palma's Bouchard, unlike Ron Howard's Bouchard... who tried to kill half the world cuz he hates humans.
Also having just watched The Devil's Advocate, I was wondering if we'd be okay with updating Milton's entry a bit.
From:
- The Devil's Advocate: John Milton (aka Satan) runs an Occult Law Firm staffed by his demons and humans he corrupted. He exploits the legal system to get as many violent criminals off the hook and spread corruption everywhere in the world, hoping that the Earth will become such a perversion that it will hurt Heaven and spite God. Having to work around the free will of humans, he subtly manipulates them to give in to evil instead. He seduces multiple women over the years so he can find offspring good enough to mate with each other and further produce The Antichrist. He drives Kevin's wife Mary Ann to madness and suicide, and rapes her for half a day, leaving her with scratch and bite marks all over her body. He later taunts his son Kevin with this crime in an especially vile Post-Rape Taunt. He brutally kills anyone within his company who tries to expose his corruption. When Kevin destroys his plan by killing himself, he kills his daughter to vent his anger by turning her into a withered husk.
To:
- The Devil's Advocate: "John Milton", really Satan himself, is a senior partner at Milton Chadwick Waters Law Firm, which he uses to entice greedy humans. Happily keeping rapists and murderers out of jail, Milton's firm also has ties to arms trade and chemical weapons around the globe to spite his father God. Ultimately seeking to bring about the apocalypse, Milton fathers many children with unknowing women, intending for the "best" ones to breed together and give birth to The Antichrist. When protagonist lawyer Kevin Lomax proves his most promising yet, Milton focuses on corrupting him, going behind Kevin's back to rape and mutilate his beloved wife, eventually driving her insane and to suicide. When Kevin confronts Milton, he boastfully admits to his crimes before trying to have Kevin sleep with his demonic half-sister, burning her to death in a rage when Kevin shoots himself to defy Milton's plans.
Thoughts?
to the John Milton/Satan rewrite.
to Sam Bouchard.
Also, my EP may have gotten buried here
, as well as Ordeaux26's here
. I hate begging for votes, but I'm afraid I only have four upvotes and Ordeaux26 only has three upvotes, so we need at least one and two more, respectively, to be sure that the candidates are approved.
Edited by DrUnknown on Sep 12th 2022 at 6:18:42 AM
Kamen Rider Revice was up for grabs on the discussion dates section and since it's now been two weeks since the show ended, I figured I'd get to work proposing the three candidates I've identified from it.
What is the work?
Kamen Rider Revice follows Ikki Igarashi, a young everyman who discovers while working at his family bathhouse one day that he has his own literal inner demon, Vice. After a series of mishaps, Ikki winds up drafted into the local government agency, Fenix, to fight against the Deadmans, a cult of demon worshippers looking to reawaken a pagan demon god to bring devastation to the world.
Who is the villain?
Orteca, the second-in-command of the Deadmans and main antagonist for the first half of the series. Orteca was originally a prodigious young man named Makoto Hatsushiba who found life boring until he was personally recruited by the founder of the Deadmans and selected by the casket of Giff to be one of the sixth Gifftex needed to reawaken him.
He at first appears as the humble and levelheaded right-hand man of the cult's figurehead Aguilera, only for it to eventually be revealed that he's really the true leader of the cult and Aguilera is his puppet.
What does he do?
Orteca spends the first quarter of the series targeting vulnerable people and coercing them into using Vistamps to awaken their inner demons so he can find worthy candidates to become Gifftex. Despite this, Orteca doesn't really do anything too out of bounds at this point and in fact, comes across as the most sane person in the Deadmans, given how his "boss" is an impulsive womanchild and his fellow executive Julio is an awkward dork. Eventually Orteca finds two worthy candidates in corrupt lawyer Yasushi Kudo and creepy mental health counselor Amahiko Haitani, who are later joined by the Chameleon Deadman whom Orteca sent to infiltrate Fenix at the beginning of the series. With five out of the sixth candidates they need (including himself and Julio) Orteca then reveals to Aguilera that she is in fact that sixth candidate and that the ritual requires her to be sacrificed to Giff in order for the demon god to reawaken. Despite learning that she will die, Aguilera chooses to go along with it, having been conditioned her entire life to be Giff's "bride".
After having the Chameleon Deadman steal the Giff Stamp, Orteca begins the ritual, only for Fenix to show up to interrupt it and for the Kamen Riders to slay both Haitani and Kudo. Orteca isn't too torn up about this however, as he still has a backup plan to revive Giff by way of him absorbing the energies of defeated Deadmen. After mocking Aguilera as nothing more than a puppet, Orteca exits the scene with the Chameleon Deadman and leaves a weeping Aguilera and furious Julio at the mercy of Fenix.
Despite losing the Deadmans Base, Orteca has his loyal follower Kanae Motomura, a young woman infatuated by him, gather the remaining Deadmans followers and keeps them together by rallying them behind the Giff Stamp. Orteca then leads them in an assault on the city, during which he uses the Giff Stamp on one of his own followers, causing her to be consumed from the inside by a Gifftarian, which he then sends to attack the Kamen Riders. Ikki destroys the Gifftarian, but finds that instead of saving the host he just destroyed it, to which Orteca mocks him for being unable to save anyone.
Orteca later learns that Julio is making up with his childhood friend Yosuke, whom he split with in the past after an incident which was the catalyst for Julio joining the Deadmans to begin with. To punish Julio for leaving the Deadmans, Orteca uses the Giff Stamp on his childhood friend to turn him into a Gifftarian, just as the two are reconciling. The act is so cruel it pushes Julio to enter into a Riot Deadman form and go on a rampage, at which point Orteca high-tails it out of there. Once Revice defeats Julio and voids his Deadman contract, Orteca decides to take the opportunity to finish the crying Julio off, but is stopped by Aguilera in her Deadman form.
Orteca then begins plotting to nab the Demons Driver from Hiromi. To do this, Orteca persuades Chigusa Yamagiri, a member of Fenix sent to infiltrate the Deadmans, to flip and begin spying on Fenix for the Deadmans instead. Things don't go too well for Chigusa however as Orteca ends up just stamping her with the Giff Stamp when he needs another Gifftarian (or actually, because she knew too much about the true relationship between the Deadmans and Fenix). Orteca is then captured by Fenix, but this turns out to be all part of the plan; Orteca is actually in league with Fenix's director and once he's brought inside Skybase, he trades the Giff Stamp to the director in exchange for the Demons Driver before promptly making off with it and blasting Hiromi off a cliff. And kicking the asses of every other Rider in the series with it for good measure.
It's at this point that Aguilera, still wanting to revive Giff, makes the very smart decision of allying with Orteca in spite of the fact that he betrayed her. The two then go on to beat down the Kamen Riders until Ikki unlocks his mid-season upgrade. Orteca attempts to finish him off, but Vail (the demon powering the Demons Driver) tells him "lol nah" and leaves the Driver. This really sends Orteca over the edge, to the point where he starts using the Giff Stamp wantonly on his own followers to create more Gifftarians. Among his victims is Kanae, the cute worshipper infatuated with him whom I mentioned earlier. Poor girl... After Aguilera pleads with him to stop killing people with it and promises to do whatever he says, Orteca stops... except he doesn't actually and keeps using it to create more, much to Aguilera's dismay.
Vail later returns to the Demons Driver and Orteca uses it until he gets beat by Daiji once he unlocks his mid-season upgrade. Luckily for Orteca, at this point Giff is only a few sacrifices away from reawakening. Orteca then begins outright abducting people and feeding them to Giff to hurry up his awakening. When the Riders show up, Orteca fuses with Giff's casket to fight them. He gets beaten for a third time after Ikki unlocks his second mid-season upgrade, at which point he himself is absorbed by Giff to complete the demon's return.
That isn't the last we see of Orteca however, as he's later revealed to still be alive in stasis in Giff's dimension. When Ikki and Vice land a critical hit on Giff, Orteca gets spit out (along with the others Giff absorbed) and promptly taken into custody.
Heinous Standard
There are three main villains in Revice - Hideo Akaishi, Giff and Orteca. The former two both have many more resources than Orteca does, Akaishi being an influential government agency director and Giff being an immensely powerful demon god, but despite that Orteca comes off as much more vile than either of them. He has a higher onscreen kill count than both, having killed Giff knows how many people with the Giff Stamp, and whereas both Akaishi and Giff are revealed to some degree to be motivated by good intentions, Orteca only cares about becoming more powerful. Of the other villains, Aguilera and Julio both have sympathetic qualities and both eventually redeem, and while both Kudo and Haitani were rotten neither did much that was particularly out of bounds. The only villain comparable to Orteca is Vail (who I'll also be getting to), but while the two operate on a similar level, both commit crimes on roughly the same scale and neither overshadows the other, with Vail only really getting active around when Orteca makes his exit.
Mitigating Factors
We do get a brief glimpse into Orteca's backstory in a flashback which shows he was child prodigy who spent his childhood isolated due to his intelligence, and who was abused by his father for being smarter than him. This is only shown for a few seconds however and it serves more to contextualize how Orteca came to be a sociopath in the present rather than make him sympathetic. Even if Orteca was abused by his father as a child, Orteca perpetuates far worse abuses on others as an adult and is only concerned with his own personal power.
Final Verdict
Orteca is definitely the villain who sets the heinous standard for Revice and while he's not dead, I don't see him getting redeemed any time soon.
Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Sep 12th 2022 at 7:34:26 AM
Just imagine something here.I really want to nominate more Resident Evil characters but have been rejected (largely on abstains) on and off on the grounds it’s a big franchise and apparently has a vague heinous standard.
If I made a sandbox about this heinous standard, would that work going forward if it’s descriptive enough? If you can even work off a sandbox to begin with.
Resident Evil doesn't have a "vague standard," that's not really a thing (outside of works with weird continuity I guess). The HS of resident evil is just really high and it's difficult for characters to stand out. I'm not really sure what you plan to put in the proposed sandbox but I'm doubt that's really going to change anything regarding the HS.
I stand by me saying that that's not really going to accomplish anything. RE's a fairly well known franchise so it's not like people are unaware of what its villains do. Plus the current Monster page gives a pretty good idea of the general standard. If you want to compile it, I'd just mention what the other villains do briefly in the heinousness section of your proposals.
Edited by papyru30 on Sep 12th 2022 at 11:28:01 AM
*breathes deeply*
Morningstar, Madson, Fiori, Pediatrician, Gideon, Demon, Amok, Frieza, Trask, End, Adrian, Wilf, Jasper, Myca, MCP, Charnel, Xian, Wallallu, Leviathan, Marie and Orteca
Keep OG!DIO, Raker and Game!DIO
Bouchard
Cut Dodge and Randolph
Any more votes on my Eli Morrow quote
?
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Sep 12th 2022 at 11:00:27 AM
Giff sought to achieve not just coexistence with mankind, but also evolve them. Unfortunately, since they labeled him as devil for doing so, Giff ultimate decided that in order for humanity to accept his gift, he would devour their negative emotions (aka Inner Demons) to do so.

Making a rare forum post to suggest Sam Bouchard/Alex Revelle, the villain of Brian De Palma's film Body Double for this trope.
What is the Work
Body Double is a 1984 mystery thriller made by Brian De Palma that pays homage to several Hitchcock films like Rear Window and Vertigo. It revolves around Jake Scully, an out-of-work actor who is hired by acquaintance Sam Bouchard to house-sit a rich guy's high-rise chemosphere apartment while the owner is away. While in the apartment, Scully peeks through a telescope and spies a beautiful rich woman called Gloria Revelle masturbating in another apartment across the way, and soon becomes aware that there's someone else watching her too.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
Sam Bouchard specifically hired Scully because he knew that Scully was something of a Peeping Tom, and would therefore be likely to keep a watchful eye on Gloria. He even hires porn actress Holly Body to pose as Gloria and perform an elaborate masturbatory ritual in order to gain Scully's attention. "Bouchard" is actually Alex Revelle, Gloria's abusive husband, who is looking to rid himself of his hated wife once and for all and inherit her vast wealth. Knowing that Scully is watching, Sam/Alex then disguises himself as an American Indian jewel thief, and breaks into Gloria's house and brutally kills her with a power drill. When Scully realizes how he's been set up, Sam/Alex attacks him and tries to bury him and Holly both alive, gleefully taunting Scully the entire time.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None whatsoever. Sam/Alex is capable of being charming and charismatic when he's conning Jake Scully, but his kindness is all a lie, and he has no problem burying Scully alive when he becomes a threat to his plans. The one scene we see of Sam/Alex when he's not scheming or killing people involves him slapping around his wife Gloria, who herself is never portrayed as anything but a kind and innocent woman, totally undeserving of her husband's abuse. Beneath his charismatic mask, he's just a thuggish domestic abuser who is more creative in his methods of killing his wife than most.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
In my opinion, Bouchard/Revelle is heinous even by mystery thriller villain standards. He abuses his innocent wife and eventually kills her in a scene worthy of a slasher flick, he tries to bury two people alive, and he never seems anything but gleeful the entire time. He doesn't even have any deep psychological motives for what he does — he just hates his wife and wants to kill her for her money.
Final Verdict?
I think he's a keeper. His entry would have to be almost entirely spoilered out, though. The film is a murder mystery, and his identity is one of the big reveals of the film.
Edited by DeMac on Sep 12th 2022 at 4:22:15 AM