During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
All things considered,I'm fine with cutting all the crossovers except M Bs (because it's a rarity).
The Villain Protagonist one I think is good to keep as well, it does have a lot of examples (like way more than I was expecting) it's still an interesting scenario that I feel deserves a sandbox. The others can go though
@acw; Nobody in Salvation, IMO, is bad enough. Captain Book is by far the least bad of the Crow's monsters.
The original comic? It's hard to make a case for any of them individually. Funboy might be the worst but paradoxically his total lack of good qualities coupled with his strange acceptance of his own evil actually takes him out of the running. He knows full well what he is and that he should feel guilt, but...doesn't, and it leaves him oddly empty over all he's done to the point where Eric grants him a relatively merciful death.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
A couple potential details regarding the moving of LN cms.
Here is the EP
on the King from Kino's Journey, it seems to be referring to his 2003 incarnation.
As for the cms from Lord Marksman and Vanadis, I think both keepers can be moved to literature especially since Torbalan has not appeared in the anime at all.
IPP Wick Check created.Eh for the sandboxes, the only ones I think is worth it is the MB crossovers since that's a unique little niche between the two cleanup threads and the Villain Protagonist one since having the main character as a CM is "quirky" to me. Not gonna be hissy if the others stay like though.
Edited by WetFlannels on Sep 9th 2022 at 8:45:10 PM
What's wrong D-16? Rise up!![]()
I will move that
Alright so I was going initially going to rewrite this guy, but now looking into it a bit more, I think he might need to be cut altogether.
- Untitled series by JudasFM
: Raker the Jackal first appears in Caves of the Ancients
, before which he had sold Tails out to a slave mine, and much earlier on, killed his own father, leading to his mother's suicide by drowning, and abusing his brother, who he renamed Bait, while ever since leading a gang responsible for actions like blowing up houses. While Sonic, Knuckles, and Bait head to the Scrap Brain Zone to save Tails, Raker stalks them the whole way, and blows up the Oil Ocean Zone during one of their confrontations. When Sonic calls him out on this the next day, his response is to casually say he didn't stop to think things through. In the next fic Sins of the Mothers
, he teams up with Knuckles's thought-to-be-dead mother and Dr. Robotnik, in hopes of getting Bait back, just so that he could torture and kill him. Getting him back also involved blowing up a building with Vector inside. Robotnik finds his actions just as appalling as everyone else. Bait is the only one who has any respect for him, because of "family loyalty", even though Sonic tries to get through to him that Raker does not return this. It speaks volumes when even Sekko, who runs the slave mine and ordered Knuckles's lost sister dead before being killed himself by the person he asked to carry it out, pales in comparison.
So this writeup is awful first of all, it's filled with tons of unneeded detail. So even if the thread decides to keep him he at the very least absolutely needs a rewrite.
The uneeded detail is making him seem a lot worse than you would think on the surface. When you actually boil down what he does his deeds aren't very impressive.
- He kills his father and leads his mother so suicide.
- Abuses his brother.
- Sells Tails into slavery.
- Blows up Oil Ocean.
- Tries to torture and kill his brother.
The "Blowing up houses" thing is offscreen villainy I checked the fanfic and it wasn't shown in it once.
His rapsheet is 1, kind of two murders, and treating his brother extremely terribly. The selling into slavery thing is horrible but he is completely outclassed in that role by Sekko who actually runs the slave mine where tons of people are enslaved. The only thing that could push him up is him destroying Oil Ocean, I checked the chapter and there are casualties but it is only a few families. Maybe this would be enough but this series is meant to be canon compliment to the Sonic franchise and the Sonic franchise is full of villains that want to destroy the entire world and destroying a single zone pales in comparison to those, and well it doesn't even sound like he is the worst in his own series as despite what the writeup is claiming what Sekko does is far worse as he enslaves many and kills them when they are no longer useful.
Yeah, I am saying cut.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 9th 2022 at 12:55:17 PM
Yeah Cutthroat and the Doctor become antagonists near the end. Only Swindler and Courier are considered protagonists since the story mostly revolves them
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff![]()
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The fan fic seems to be written before Sonic decided to go through its Eldritch Abomination phase so I'll cut it some slack on the standard bit. The Oil Ocean zone bit would've pushed me over but if you say it's only a few deaths compared to what the writeup implies and the house attacks are purely offscreen with no levity... eh I'm guessing a cut?
Okay taking a look at the chapter again, the number of people killed is actually way higher than it first seemed.
Bait cringed. "Mister, how many was there to start with? Includin' the ones who made it?"
Knuckles regarded him quietly before saying, "Five hundred security guards, seven hundred and fifty perimeter guards and families...to be honest, I don't know, but given the size of Oil Ocean Zone I'd estimate well over five thousand. That's just families, mind; family members...there must have been at least twelve or fifteen thousand individuals living and working in that Zone. About a hundred of those made it out."
I mean still though this number pales in comparison to the number of Omnicidal Maniacs the franchise is filled with, and even before this came out we had Shadow, Gerald, Eggman himself and Black Doom.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 9th 2022 at 2:00:16 AM
I'm mostly concerned he might be a victim of Van Zant Syndrome, since the franchise is full of Omnicidal Maniacs threatening all life on the planet while Raker is only threatening one zone, so I don't know if lower resources can save him. The only thing I could really see giving him points is that it is a fanfic before some of the Omnicidal Maniacs were introduced.
Personally, I don't think fanfic villains should be judged strictly by the standard of the canon work even though the standard of the canon work should still be acknowedged.
If I remember correctly, we approved Trogen (or whatever his name was) even though he blew up only one planet despite coming from a Dragon Ball fanfic and in Dragon Ball blowing up planets is the norm.
So, I think I am fine with keeping this guy.
Edited by WatTambor on Sep 9th 2022 at 12:43:41 PM
So, I've been on a bit of a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure kick lately and discovered something that, unfortunately, makes me think we're gonna have to cut DIO.
...Oh, I don't mean canon Dio. I mean his incarnation in The 7th Stand User.
See, there's an optinional Superboss against a figure known as Creator. Serving as a reference to The Final Fantasy Legend (to the point where the sprites and lines are nearly identical) Creator reveals that he created Dio as a way to test the courage and determination of mankind. Thus, giving moral agency issues to Dio, as all his actions were done because it was literally the purpose of his creation.
Now, in fairness, this is something that just serves as a reference to another RPG, and never impacts the story itself, as opposed to Final Fantasy Legend where it's the outright ending to the game. But like...it's still in the game at the end of the day, so I don't know if it can just be written off.
Here's a video of the confrontation with Creator for reference's sake
.
Before anybody asks, no, this version of Creator doesn't qualify. Literally nothing he does is different from his incarnation in Final Fantasy Legend, just that it's Dio instead of Ashura. Not enough distinctions for an entry of him to be worth it.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Sep 9th 2022 at 5:49:15 AM
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Trogen also wanted to blow up Earth in addition to Yadrat, slaughtered his army numbering in the thousands, tortured Cooler, and in general was a tyrant who caused suffering throughout the empire. He pretty much supplanted Frieza as the new HS at that point in time.
Also cut CM Laughably Evil, that's a really pointless sandbox and isn't notable just because a psycho makes a few jokes.
Edited by Snowy66 on Sep 9th 2022 at 2:49:14 AM
@43
About Cutthroat and Doctor, it really depends if Villain Protagonist is exclusively about main protagonists. Cutthroat and Doctor, along with the rest of the Akudama, the audience follows as a group for over half the show.
Not sure on DIO
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OK, but I still think that in cases of fanfics, the canon heinous standard should just be used as a reference to see if the villain doesn't fail it too much while the villain should be judged mostly by the heinous standard of the fanfic itself.
Edited by WatTambor on Sep 9th 2022 at 1:00:38 PM
Abstain on Raker.
I think everything but the MB and Villain Protagonist sandboxes can go, especially the Houdini sandbox. It's practically a running gag that people complain about Monsters either going unpunished or cases where they may as well not have been punished.
When are we going to discuss The Invitation 2022? It has been 2 weeks and I am really waiting on that one.

My thoughts on this is that the sandboxes should be for interesting scenarios like when the main character is a CM or a character fits CM and MB, final boss feels too common to really warrant a sandbox and Karma Houdini has too much wiggle room for what constitutes as karma for it to really be a viable sandbox.
Edited by papyru30 on Sep 9th 2022 at 12:58:47 PM