During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Madson.
- Agents of Mayhem: The Morningstar is the mysterious leader of L.E.G.I.O.N and mastermind behind their atrocities. When L.E.G.I.O.N uncovers the power of Dark Matter, the Morningstar decides to go public with "Devil's Night"; an event in which L.E.G.I.O.N's armies had entire cities, and armies wiped out across the globe, with an estimated millions left dead, and multiple governments toppled. The Morningstar secretly conspires with his underling Dr. Babylon to harness more Dark Matter that would grant the Morningstar godhood; his ultimate goal being to wipe out the world and remake it in his own image. When Persephone Brimstone defects and topples Morningstar's plans, L.E.G.I.O.N has Paris destroyed by her husband to punish her. Setting up Babylon's operations in Seoul, The Morningstar threatens him with execution for his failure, a promise he ultimately makes good on.
Edited by Beast on Sep 6th 2022 at 1:23:28 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."BTW, how's about this quote for the recently approved Marcus O'Henry? I mentioned it in my post, but I figure I might as well officially propose it.
Should Morningstar go first or second? He's the boss, but not The Heavy.
Sure to the quote.
Edited by ACW on Sep 6th 2022 at 4:49:36 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I know we just discussed the keepability of J. Geil, and I'm sorry if this has been brought up before, but I'm starting to have a certain amount of doubt about the Complete Monstrosity of Dio Brando.
After watching the new batch of episodes on Netflix, it seems to me that Dio may have had a genuine bond with Pucci. It's always possible that he was being a Manipulative Bastard and only pretending to be his friend (or whatever relationship it is they had), but there's a certain degree of Alternative Character Interpretation involved here, as seen on YMMV.Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure Stone Ocean. The interpretation that Dio truly cares about Pucci seems to have a similar amount of weight as the one where he treats him as a tool to further his plans.
I'm also thinking back to the ending of Phantom Blood, where Dio appears to hold some Villain Respect for Jonathan and sounds genuinely offended when Wang Chan suggests torturing him to death: he insists anything but a quick and painless death would be an insult.
That said, I'm not totally opposed to keeping him as a CM. In fact, I think I'm leaning 75% towards keep, and 25% cut. After all, the evil deeds he does commit are so heinous that they make it easy to conclude that the few times where he seems not to be 100% evil have some kind of ulterior motive behind them.
I likewise lean heavily on keeping him. DIO's characterized by his megalomania and while he's complex and capable on some level of respecting things about people, like their strength, he'll always ultimately choose himself and power over a friend or seeming loved one. Pucci cares for DIO but DIO is a Manipulative Bastard extraordinaire who ultimately wants to use Pucci to enact his vision of reality.
Dig the quote, STAR!
Likewise think DIO is fine, honestly even further boosting him in recent years for me is that Eyes of Heaven—written by Araki himself—showcases an alternate DIO having the exact same relationship with Pucci...then, uh, later sending him to die in battle and not blinking when he's killed. DIO values Pucci as a fanatic supporter but considering how DIO operates as a sociopath with a god complex who loves making people worship him, I'd say there's enough to override most chances that his relationship with Pucci is legitimate.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I think the end of Part 1 is a slightly stronger argument than the Part 6 stuff, and my post should have focused more on that.
Dio insists that Jonathan be given an honorable and painless death. He had the opportunity to make an enemy suffer, and intentionally refused to take it. Even if it's just because he's impressed at how Jonathan was able to bring him to the brink of defeat, it still means that there is the possibility of him willingly showing someone a shred of mercy under certain circumstances.
Dio seems fine to keep.
I'm already exasperated thinking about my next candidate. It will be an interesting discussion on how far we want to take the delusions of a Tautological Templar as a valid excuse.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
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Assuming this is Cyrus Temple, I found this in his folder:
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones: Apparently, Cyrus has a niece who used to tune in for Veteran Child on 89.0 Gen X. Cyrus requests an autograph from Veteran Child because of her, despite openly admitting that he hates "hippy bullshit".
Madson
What is the work? Kindred: The Embraced is a short-lived Lighter and Softer TV adaptation of everyone's favorite tabletop game, Vampire: The Masquerade. The show takes place in San Francisco—ten years after a Camarilla Civil War—and explores the unlives of its many vampires, specifically The Wise Prince Julian Luna—portrayed by talented actor Mark Frankel, who tragically passed away a few months after the season finale, preventing the show from receiveing another season—As Prince of San Francisco, Julian must deal with not only all kinds of vampiric criminals but also his own Primogen council: Ventrue advisor Archon Raine, Toreador club owner Lillie Langtry, Gangrel bodyguard Cash, Nosferatu painter Daedalus and finally their Token Evil Teammate...
Who is he? Eddie Fiori is the Brujah Primogen of San Francisco and Prince Julian Luna's power hungry arch-nemesis for most of the show, serving as the closest thing that it has to a Big Bad. Believing Luna to be a weak pro-human leader, Fiori seeks to overthrow him by any means necessary, even if it means starting yet another war between the clans to get what he wants. Fiori's vision for San Francisco is one where "business is business" regardless of human law, a city where vampires kill whoever they want and the worst of them rule from the shadows. A callous mobster who oversees a white-collar scheme hiding behind the façade of a dock worker's union, Fiori is introduced executing the original Grangel Primogen by staking him and leaving him to be burned alive by the sun as part of his plan to start another war.
Fiori then proceeds to order a drive-by shooting targeting Lillie's crowded club and has a hand in the orchestrating the blood-hunt for Luna's innocent childe just to mess with him. Loyalty to the Brujah clan means absolutely nothing to Fiori, as he had a human informant killed and was all to happy to let his own right-hand man take the fall for the murder. The tension—or should I say, Cold War—between the clans finally worsens when Fiori murders more Gangrel vampires and forcibly Embraces Luna's human niece to provoke him into going after the Brujah, his own people.
Fiori also knows that a war between the vampires could very well break The Masquerade and put all vampires at risk, but he simply doesn't care. The vampires are saved from war at the last second thanks to the intervention of the feared Nosferatu—who decide announce their support to the moderate Luna—forcing Fiori to back off. You must be expecting Luna to execute him or at least kick him off the Primogen, right? Well, Luna not only spares his life but also lets him stay with his position intact... This soon proves to be a dumb move, as Fiori and his equally-nasty sire hire an Assamite assassin in one last attempt to kill Luna. The plan fails and Fiori is unceremoniously decapitated by Lillie as revenge for having manipulated her.
Mitigating Qualities? Nope! Fiori has a pretty troubled relationship with his sire: He likes his help but also sees him for what he truly is: another rival, Fiori won't share power with anyone, not even his sire.
Heinous? He'd be a generic "evil mafia guy" if not for the fact that he almost succeeded in starting a freaking vampire war, Fiori passes. I'll be discussing the notable lower-tier baddies in my next effort-post.
Conclusion? A fourth for Brian Thompson? Anyway, guess we finally have a Brujah!
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 6th 2022 at 8:35:27 AM

Tomorrow Soul Hackers 2 reaches two weeks but I ask until mid month to discuss it (I bought the game a week ago)
Watch me destroying my country