During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Today, I'm supposed to bring up Saints Row (2022)...but I'm still going through that game and have been buried with other stuff lately. With that said I did recall a potential CM for the franchise, who I initially dismissed for being too mysterious and unconnected from the main plot.
Things changed.
So anyone who knows the Saints Row series knew that it started out as a standard Grand Theft Auto clone where you play as a nameless, customizable protagonist, bringing the titular Saints gang into power and taking over two cities. The Third game onwards took the series in a more over the top direction - so much so that it got a spin off called Agents of Mayhem.
Agents of Mayhem is a spinoff and pseudo sequel following the "reboot" ending of Saints Row: Gat Out of Hell, focusing on the efforts of a clandestine, super spy organization as it battles the supervillain organization L.E.G.I.O.N, led by the mysterious figure known as The Morningstar.
Who is Morningstar ? What does he do ?
The masked, enigmatic leader of L.E.G.I.O.N, the Morningstar serves as the Greater-Scope Villain of the game, being the mastermind behind their atrocities. For decades, L.E.G.I.O.N operated in the shadows, with each faction named after The Seven Deadly Sins, and working through criminal organizations such as The Yakuza. Originally operating in secret, when the Morningstar's top lieutenant, Dr. Babylon, uncovers the secrets of Dark Matter, the Morningstar decides for L.E.G.I.O.N to go public in a big way.
This led to "Devil's Night", wherein L.E.G.I.ON, with their empowered armies and technology commit a mass terrorist attack on multiple cities and countries across the globe; killing millions of soldiers and civilians across a single night. Highlights of this attack include, wiping out Sydney Australia, spreading a black matter plague across India; wiping out entire armies and crippling entire governments (at least, the ones who didn't bend the knee). Many of the playable agents had been affected by Devils Night, either surviving, or fighting off these attacks, leading to their recruitment.
While The Morningstar publicly declared his goal was to create a one world government under himself, he kept most of his lieutenants in the dark of his real agenda, except for Dr. Babylon. One Lieutenant, Persephone Brimstone, overhears Morningstar and Babylon discussing their plans to harvest the true power of Dark Matter, which Morningstar intends to use to wipe out the world and rewrite reality in his own image.
Unable to stand for this, Perseophone steals L.E.G.I.O.N's Ark, using its technology to go on the run and destroy Babylon's work. As punishment, L.E.G.I.O.N destroys the city of Paris - through Perseophone's husband no less. From then on, Persephone goes on to create Mayhem, to counter L.E.G.I.O.N and foil their plans.
In the main game, the Morningstar himself isn't present, with Babylon being The Heavy. Morningstar briefly appears on a hologram to warn Babylon of his limited time to harness the power of a Dark Matter comet, under the threat of death. At the end of the game, Babylon's operations are foiled, and the Morningstar sends his enforcer, Marcus Longinus to punish and kill Babylon.
The Morningstar himself remains The Unfought, and the game ends on And the Adventure Continues note.
Mitigating Qualities ?
Originally I dismissed the Morningstar since the man himself isn't present through the main story. Almost everything we know of him is in second hand conversations.
He only appears in either flashback sequences pertaining to Devil's Night, a cutscene where he warns Babylon of the limited time to reach the Dark Matter comet. There's also the fact we know little about Morningstar himself beyond his deeds and goals. He's not exactly this layered three dimensional antagonist; he's a Cobra Commander stand-in and the head of the games Nebulous Evil Organization.
With that all said, he's not a Hidden Agenda Villain either; Persephone's introduction cutscene
reveals that he's a Godhood Seeker, hoping to harness the power of Dark Matter, and destroy and rewrite reality. He's also not loyal to his followers, keeping all but Dr. Babylon in the dark of his true endgame, with Babylon under the threat of execution if he fails. A threat that's presumably carried out.
In short, while the Monringstar isn't that fleshed out, with what we do know about him, there's nothing that inherently disqualifies him.
Heinous Standard
So despite Agents of Mayhem being a spinoff...it's still directly connected to Saints Row, with multiple returning characters and such. In the main series, the playa/The Boss, is among the most ruthless Villain Protagonists in gaming, outdoing almost all GTA protagonists in the death and destruction they canonically cause. Though a few villains manage to outdo The Boss.
You've got Eddie Pryor, whose only marginally worse than the Boss by getting involved in sex trafficking; Cyrus Temple, a Tautological Templar who attempts to launch a nuclear attack on America and rebuild it in his own image. There's Zinyak who abducts and tortures entire populations before atomitizing Earth; and Satan, who dragged numerous souls into Hell during Zinyak's invasion and is constantly trying to siege Heaven. All except Satan have one Mitigating Quality or another, with Dr. Babylon being the franchise's only other CM.
With all that said, the Morningstar is the mastermind behind Devil's Night, which alone passes him over the series heinous standard; an act in which multiple cities and countries where attacked in a single night, with the death toll being in the millions, with entire nations and governments either crippled or taken over by L.E.G.I.O.N.
And it's not like Devil's Night was some offscreen atrocity, it's shown throughout the game in flashbacks, from the especially with character introductions
and the recruitment cutscene
; many of the playable characters were affected by L.E.G.I.O.N or Devil's Night in some way, either being survivors of the attacks, or successfully fighting them off.
There's also his end goal of wanting to destroy and rewrite reality as a god, which Babylon attempts to do towards the end of the game. It's still Morningstar's plan that Babylon tries to hijack, and when Babylon's operations go up in smoke, the Morningstar has him executed.
Edited by Beast on Sep 6th 2022 at 8:33:37 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Sounds like a yes. And now...one of my next thre...
What's the work?
Dead Again is a thriller directed by Kenneth Branagh. The story begins in 1948. Margaret Strauss is murdered and her husband Roman is condemned to death. 43 years later. Detective Mike Church is investigting a case, meets a woman and sees they ahve a shocking resemblance to Roman and Margaret...delving into it, they learn they're the reincarnations of the lovers through sessions with Dr. Franklyn Madson.
Let's talk...
Dr. Madson
Who is Franklyn Madson?
"Frankie" in the past, I should explain a few things. Frankie was the son of the housekeper Inga, who loved Roman, but was rebuffed in favor of Margaret. Upon the realization his mother was unhappy, Frankie brutally murdered Margaret with a pair of scissors and framed Roman. Later when they left to America, Frankie became convinced their spirits would return and decided to destroy them, concocting a scheme to entrap the two and destroy their minds before killing them. Tormenting them with their past lives and aiming to destroy their faith in one another before he killed them to break the bond.
Inga, now an old woman, reveals enough of the truth to Mike, to the consternation of Frankie/Madson, who puts her to bed, and then murders her by smothering her with a pillow, wholly remorseless. He then ambushes the heroes, intending to murder them, trick them into killing one another, but then opts to murder Amanda and Mike both, set them up for the fall for one another and waltz out scot free. In the ensuing fight, Mike manages to throw him onto a sculpture of scissors, impaling Madson and finishing him, while Mike and Amanda are reunited.
Mitigating issues?
Not really, no. Madson might not have the biggest body count, but his deeds as a kid, trying to go to extra lengths to mentally annihilate his victims? Now, the only detail is as a teenager, he murdered Margaret for stealing Roman from his mother....
To say he seems to have lost this love is pretty much an understatement. He murders Inga without any remorse, cruelly smothering her for his own benefit before continuing on.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Well. I guess Kenneth Branagh got his CM as Director after all then. Based on the EP,
to Madson.
You look at Lotso being totally disillusioned by Daisy getting a new Lotso doll after he worked so hard to get back to her being totally undone by his desire to just suppress and be master of all the toys at Sunnyside—and even more so by spitefully sending Andy's toys to the incinerator just because they dared to defy and prove him wrong—it totally makes sense that the previous love would totally be tossed out the window here and maybe even wasn't genuine to begin with.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 6th 2022 at 9:38:02 AM
Yes to Morningstar and Madson, nice work on the Jacobi!
How's this as a quote from one of my favorite book baddies:
Edited by Ravok on Sep 6th 2022 at 11:48:58 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

Sorry, but: