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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#323076: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:23:13 PM

[tup] Omega

Keep J. Geil

It's Spooky Month!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#323077: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:25:34 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a shot flashback of J. Geil having raped/killed someone?

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#323078: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:27:37 PM

@Ravok I'm sorry but I'm now more confused by what you mean. The stories are still canon to each other and there isn't a massive resource gap so I don't understand why we wouldn't directly compare the two.

[up]We do get a flashback of him killing Polnaref's sister but for me at least that isn't enough to establish a pattern especially since the only line that mentions him having other victims is the somewhat vague "continue to be surrounded by pretty girls" line.

Edited by papyru30 on Sep 4th 2022 at 9:36:54 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#323079: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:30:38 PM

Ehh, I'm leaning on a cut now. I'm not really seeing the arguments keeping, having seen the anime as well.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Sep 4th 2022 at 11:31:15 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#323080: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:30:59 PM

Yeah that isn't how the heinous standard works, all villains need to be compared to each other as long as they share the same heinous standard.

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#323081: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:35:35 PM

J. Geil does have a flashback of him killing and "taking away the innocence" (as Polnareff put it) of Sherry yes, while also hurting badly Sherry's friend.

And, i know i keep comparing him to Angelo and it sounds a bit annoying, but Angelo also has a flashback of him raping people, and Angelo is from the same universe as him.

Here's a few videos to back up my claim:

Not to mention that it's Jotaro who is telling this, meaning that it is very much confirmed that he indeed did those things.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#323082: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:36:53 PM

if J. Geil brags having raped woman in the past and one rape is shown onscreen, then that's establishes a pattern, especially with looser standards regarding on and off-screen villainy that we've recently established

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#323083: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:37:40 PM

Yes to Omega.

I'm gonna stay out of the Jo Jo stuff, as I've never seen the series and can't comment. Also, to be honest, this feels like it's gonna become and Old Guard vs New Guard situation and that don't sound too fun.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#323084: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:44:25 PM

G Editor i can certainly understand where you're coming from. But here's the thing, the only rape that's mentioned is Sherry's, Polnareff wants revenge for her sister only and nobody mentions if he did have other victims, only him.

Lore Deluxe apologies if i started something bad, thought it was gonna be a relitavely straightforward proposal.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Sep 4th 2022 at 8:46:37 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#323085: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:46:38 PM

Leaning keep on J.G.

Listing J. Geil keep and cut votes.
Keep: Ravok, G-Editor, Jackie, Me, nwotyzal, Austin, Scraggle, Mr. 4, Purple, Emperor, Demon, Tell, Hayuki, Cloister, Mira (15)

Cut: Wrong One, Papyru, Powermaster, A Sghhrv6ub (4)

I hope this can end here and now.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Sep 5th 2022 at 11:03:38 AM

IPP Wick Check created.
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#323087: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:58:19 PM

Honestly fine with Geil.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#323089: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:02:40 PM

Okay, i am fine if he still seems like a keeper, but if it's not a bother, can someone at least put a more concise argument for it? Cause Marvok's argument seemed to confuse me and Papyru.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Sep 4th 2022 at 9:03:17 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#323090: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:04:08 PM

If someone reads Ravok and G's arguments and votes to keep, then that's all they need to do. I'm abstaining personally cause I don't know it well enough to take a stance but no one has to explain their votes if they're just agreeing with someone else's arguments - arguments which seem to amount to "there's enough of a pattern set especially with our offscreen villainy rules" and "he's got enough of the visceral crimes plus even more stuff outside of it"

@Ordeaux: I don't mean to badger, but explaining how the heinous standard works to Ravok of all people seems... kinda pointless?

[down] It's no problem - the trope is YMMV for a reason and you're 100% allowed to disagree, it's just that once an argument gets made and people vote, you kinda gotta back up just a bit. Just noting you didn't do anything wrong and we're all good.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 4th 2022 at 12:09:17 PM

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#323091: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:08:09 PM

Alright then, i guess that seems like enough, apologies.

[up] Yeah, at the very least people did saw my point. Thanks for listening.

[down] It was not my intention to say that it was a bad argument, just weirdly worded and got me and papyru confused. I apologise if i came off that way, and i'm gonna stop arguing for him as of now.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Sep 4th 2022 at 9:22:29 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#323092: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:14:44 PM

Kindly stop telling people their arguments aren't good enough. I know you want information but reading this what you're putting sounds extremely rude and insulting. Geil may have an ambiguous number of victims but he's still a vicious pedophile and killer with an implied sizeable count. It's not a "weak" argument to acknowledge that and Angelo's existence doesn't mean there isn't room for another nasty psycho, especially a low run thug like him. Keep J. Geil.

Seconding what Star said as well, don't "explain" facets of the process to people you know are aware of it, it's rude.

Edited by 43110 on Sep 4th 2022 at 12:15:36 PM

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#323094: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:18:54 PM

I won’t vote on j geil, I’m not familiar enough with jojo for that

Edited by Mediawatcher on Sep 4th 2022 at 9:19:11 AM

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#323095: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:24:32 PM

Keep Geil. In addition to there being a pattern, he also uses civilians as human shields... yeah. He keeps.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#323096: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:26:59 PM

So, I have a duo to propose after I did an MB, from Rio Youers Lola on Fire...Blair Mayo, and Jimmy Latzo.

who are Blair and Jimmy?

Jimmy Latzo, The Italian Cat, is a ruthless and cruel mobster and the top in Philly. a man who built his reputation with the help of Lola Bear, his chief hitwoman, Jimmy was obsessed with her. Jimmy had Lola kill tons of people, positively carving an empire on countless bodies until the day Lola betrayed him, shot him and left him for dead, deformed from the wounds. Years later, Jimmy murdered Lola's husband in retribution, but spared her kids in the hopes of luring her out.

Blair Mayo was born the daughter of a meth-addicted woman who was...different. And far more ruthless than a kid should be. When her mother owed money, Blair decided to deal with the issue and planted evidence to arrange a gang war that killed dozens. H Er mother fell back to the bait and died of an OD, so blair went into fighting, where she was recognized by Jimmy. He took her in and adopted her as his new Lola...

And Blair, hungry to create a legend for herself and kill Lola, formed a plan with Jimmy. Brody, Lola's son, is met by Blair who gets him to help her steal back an 'inheritance.' In truth, Blair's already murdered a woman to frame Brody and sets him on the run to get to Lola. Blair and Jimmy kill several others and in the nastiest moment in the book? Kidnap a friend of theirs, along with Molly, Brody's sister with cerebral palsy. Jimmy films himself shooting said friend and he and Blair savagely torture Molly by beating her sensitive legs with pipes.

This gets Lola alright. The fight that ensues ends as Brody takes on Jimmy and shoots him exactly as Lola did. Lola faces Blair and manages to kill her in a fight, telling blair at the end? "You're the best I ever beat."

Mitigating issues?

No. They've got a perfctly functional relationship, but neither seems capable of real care. Jimmy wants Blair to create a new Lola, admitting freely he's obsessed with Lola but wants to humiliate and destroy her in the end. Blair? She cared nothing for her mother, wasn't bothered by her death and while she presents as Jimmy's daughter, the two are more plotters together, with no real demonstrated love or affection. Jimmy snaps at her a few times when he's in a bad mood, but never once shows any care.

Beyond that...lots of death and, oh yes, they torture a handicapped girl in a way that's pretty fucked.

Conclusion?

A yes to the duo.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#323097: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:27:21 PM

Ok, let me lay this out as clear as humanly possible: J. Geil is a vile rapist and killer of underage girls. We get one onscreen, he tried the same with Sherry's friend, and he brags that what he did to Sherry he's done to others. By updated standards of Offscreen Villainy, this is enough to establish a pattern. Ambiguous number of victims doesn't need to factor in when pedophile rapists are not all that prevalent in JoJo. Angelo is the one who keeps getting brought up...ok, so Angelo is another pedophile rapist. That doesn't change the fact that J. Geil is the only other one as vicious as Angelo, with unique crimes of his own like using an entire crowd as a human shield.

I really, earnestly do not see what everyone is getting confused about my statements...we kept Kira off, in part, by comparing him to Angelo from the same Part because Angelo was a rapist of minors. I said it's not the same situation because J. Geil is a rapist of minors as well, and that for the Part he's in, he stands out even more because unlike Part 4, there isn't another serial killer worse than him, ala Angelo vs Kira. I at no freaking point said that we shouldn't compare Angelo and J. Geil, or that the Parts weren't canon to each other, or that the heinous standard was different, and I'm getting rather annoyed that people are pretty much putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

If someone is "confused" about my statement, fine, ask for clarification, but don't try to twist my words and claim I don't understand the heinous standard when I've put up more than enough candidates to show I "how the heinous standard works."

EDIT: Yes to Blair and Jimmy there bro!

Edited by Ravok on Sep 4th 2022 at 9:31:44 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#323098: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:30:15 PM

I also really, well and truly, want people to stop lecturing others on the heinous standards. eSPECIALLY people with hundreds of examples under their belts.

The fact is, if you disagree J Geil belongs on the trope, argue it respectfully. Don't say "your argument is bad" here, don't be "that's not how heinousness works" etc etc.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#323099: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:31:03 PM

[tup] Blair and Jimmy.

[up][up] I honestly didn't intend to twist your words like that I thought that you were trying to say those by the way that you worded your posts which were rather confusing to understand for me. Thanks for the clarification there.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 4th 2022 at 9:32:01 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#323100: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:32:06 PM

Ravok sums it up well and I think I'm gonna sign off here cuz that one rattled me.

Edit: On a happier note yes to Lighty's!

Edited by 43110 on Sep 4th 2022 at 12:32:59 PM


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