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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#323053: Sep 4th 2022 at 2:53:32 PM

[tup] for Marcus O'Henry.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#323054: Sep 4th 2022 at 2:57:16 PM

[tup]Marcus.

Why so serious?
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#323055: Sep 4th 2022 at 3:00:08 PM

[tup]Oh Hi, Marc

Edited by nwotyzal on Sep 4th 2022 at 3:01:05 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#323057: Sep 4th 2022 at 4:15:28 PM

[tup] Marcus O'Henry

Said this...I think Dr. Jones deserves a EP. Sure, he fails in his plan while being at step 1, but its such a fucking vile plan that IMO he passes anyway based on that description. He is THAT much of a Big Bad Wannabe (nor that we also have other Big Bad Wannabe C Ms)?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 4th 2022 at 6:16:19 AM

Watch me destroying my country
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#323058: Sep 4th 2022 at 4:36:09 PM

There’s also hints of him being a WIE - the heinousness issue was a bigger one for me, but he genuinely cares about nature and believes that humans and supernaturals are ruining it. Notably, he tells this to someone that hates him (and straight up murders him at the end of the conversation), and that person genuinely believes his conviction

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#323059: Sep 4th 2022 at 4:46:09 PM

Alright, so i saw something on Jojo's CMs and i saw that one of them seemed a little fishy on their status, so i decided to investigate on other proposals that were negated, but i think i found new evidence with the guy, that is, J. Geil.

Now the first thing is that in other proposals he has been compared to Angelo in terms that he in comparasion did worse than J. Geil, however, we did not account just how much he falls in comparasion to Angelo.

The big evidence that i want to mention is that we don't actually get that much information that establishes that J. Geil is a serial killer and rapists of many women. Namely, we only get one line that comes from him that says "Meanwhile, I, J. Geil, will continue a life surrounded by young beauties, like your sister!". While this wouldn't be much of a problem with other series, the fact that this is the only part where we get implied that he did this before does give problems, especially comparing him with Angelo, whose crimes got explained by Jotaro, a third party, and "shown" by dark visuals that he indeed raped more than once, and he did to young children. Pretty much confirming that he did do it unlike J. Geil whose only a "Possibly".

There's also the fact that his stand "Hanged Man" does have much more opportunities to kill unlike Angelo's Aqua Necklace. The proof of this is that Angelo had to attack in cities, where water was present everywhere and had to be raining to expand it in full, not to mention that he did his worst crimes while he had no stand (as he only obtained it while he was in jail). Meanwhile J. Geil is shown to fight Polnareff and Kakyoin in the desert, a place with no water and only reflections, meaning that he has way more opportunities to kill with his stand than Angelo, and he's implied that he always had Hanged Man, since we see in the flashback of Sherry's rape and death that he attacks Sherry's friend without touching her.

Sure, he is disgusting, he still did rape and kill at least someone, he's not above involving anyone in battles to kill for his pleasure, he has great sadism for his victims and we do allow at least simular CM's in the same show, he's at least a Hate Sink for sure. However, J. Geil is a bit too vague on the total victims he has (if any aside from Sherry) and has a lot more opportunities to do his crimes than Angelo, so i'd say he has to go.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#323060: Sep 4th 2022 at 5:46:24 PM

So, I've been browsing video game related music and fan music renditions...and I think I may have stumbled onto a overlooked CM from a source that has had previous experience creating songs making already existing video game villains far worse than they are in canon.....

What is the work?

Cannon Ball - With Lyrics is a song by Man On The Internet, based on the Mega Man Zero series, specifically Zero 3. Man on the Internet has made songs that made Lavos from Chrono Trigger and Marx from Kirby bad enough to qualify for this trope even through they don't qualify for differing reasons in their home franchises. This is another one of these songs

This song in question is sang from Omega Zero's point of view. Omega Zero's creator, Dr. Weil is already a CM in the Megaman timeline(and the WORST one in fact), but he isn't the subject of this effortpost. For one, unlike Man on the Internet's take on Dark Samus, this song dosen't give him a more distinct personality to warrant a separate music entry from his entry on the Mega Man CM page. In fact, Dr. Weil is only barely mentioned in the lyrics at all. Rather this effortpost will be about Dr. Weil's creation, Omega Zero himself.

Who is Omega Zero? How is he portrayed in the Song?

Created by Dr. Weil to start the Elf Wars using Zero's original body, Omega would cause mass destruction before being sealed away in Space. When reawakened in the events of Mega Man Zero 3, he sees that-to paraphrase the lyrics-the new era he awakened to is a "fragile peace" held up by "those that arm for war". He declares it a treat and expresses how "bloodshed is so sweet" and he "wants more" bloodshed, and he will leave his victims "screaming out his name". The song then describes Omega as launching a frenzied slaughter killing everything he sees "soaring through the sky" like a cannonball, with the chorus singing how Omega is "bathing in blood". Omega considers mass slaughter a release of pleasure and relishes in feeding off the screams of his victims. He declares the real Zero and his new body a "broken husk awaiting the end". The song then goes about how he declares himself to be Dr.Weil's "perfect design" and how he will choose to cause bloodshed no matter where and relish in all the deaths his rampage will cause.

The exact lyrics:

I am the messiah! LAUGHS MANIACALLY

Facing the light with a blade made of fire Programmed to fight for that is my desire This world is built on mechanical graves And I am the end of an age!

Fragile peace, held up by people who arm for war What a treat! Bloodshed is so sweet, and I want more! Light it up, and on the saber I proclaim Omega! I'll leave you screaming out my name!

I'll fly like a cannon ball! Bathing in blood, Omega! Cry out as the hammer falls! Bathing in blood, Omega! Everything dies screaming as I soar through the sky! Fly like a cannon ball! Prep for the еnd and we fire the cannon! Prеp for the end and we fire the cannon! Prep for the end and we fire the cannon! Fire the cannon ball!

Oh, look at them run Feed on the screams 'til the concert is done And oh, what a release When they're denied the lie that is peace Oh, all you defend A broken husk just awaiting the end And oh, you choose to stand I choose to fire the gun in my hand! And oh, onward I ride!I am a genius' perfect design! And oh, red are the skies! They are the heralds, apocalypse nigh! Now die! Prep for the end and we fire the cannon! Prep for the end and we fire the cannon! Prep for the end and we fire the cannon! Fire the cannon ball!

Foolish man! You built your cities atop your graves! By my hand, I usher in the end of an age! Grind you down beneath the progress of the wheel! Cut you down! That's how the blood will stain the steel!

I'll fly like a cannon ball! Bathing in blood, Omega! Cry out as the hammer falls! Bathing in blood, Omega! Everything dies screaming as I soar through the sky! Fly like a cannon ball! Prep for the end and we fire the cannon! Prep for the end and we fire the cannon! Prep for the end and we fire the cannon! Prep for the end and we fire the cannon! Fire the cannon ball! Fire the cannon ball!

Any Mitigating Factors?

Now, the reason Omega didn't qualify in the main Mega Man Zero saga is because he is a literal Generic Doomsday Villain whose programmed to kill by Dr. Weil. All he literally does too is fight Zero a few times and die. So there are some arguable genuine agency issues with Omega along with lack of personality in general. Now there are some vague hints Omega does relish bloodshed, such as when he declares himself the "Messiah" and laughs manically in the final phase of the final boss fight in Zero 3, but that is hardly enough to qualify him.

Here?

It's made clear that Omega relishes mass death and killing as many humans and Reploids as possible and enjoys it. Any agency issues are thrown right out as it is clear that Omega "chooses to fire the gun in his hand". So here it is clear that Omega actively seeks to kill and enjoys killing and causing bloodshed For the Evulz, rather than be a mindless force of destruction. We get the picture of Omega standing on a mountain of Reploid corpses during the Elf Wars in Zero 3, so his involvement in the Elf Wars isn't completely Offscreen Villainy when framed in the context of the song.

Verdict

Up to you.

Fun fact: I will say if this is upvoted, it will be my first music CM.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 4th 2022 at 6:09:03 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#323061: Sep 4th 2022 at 5:56:00 PM

Abstain on Omega and Centerfold (J. Geil's dub name on certain channels).

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#323062: Sep 4th 2022 at 5:58:31 PM

[tup] Omega Zero, I will abstain on the Jojo one as I know that franchise has caused some issues.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#323063: Sep 4th 2022 at 6:16:49 PM

[tup] to Omega

AwarenessBringer Since: Sep, 2017 Relationship Status: Singularity
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#323066: Sep 4th 2022 at 7:13:43 PM

Yes to Omega; J. Geil I say is fine, he's a low level rapist and murderer of underage girls who establishes that it's routine and later endangers a lot of civilians including children, for the Part he comes from he's nasty enough, it's not like Angelo and Kira sharing a part and able to be directly compared and contrasted, J. Geil is from an entirely different storyline where he's the only one of DIO's servants that uniquely despicable.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#323067: Sep 4th 2022 at 7:16:51 PM

[tup] Marcus.

[tup] Omega.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#323068: Sep 4th 2022 at 7:37:08 PM

Not voting on the song candidate but I'm leaning cut to J. Geil having seen the series up to his death. For me there isn't near enough to establish a pattern of behavior with him. Regarding what Ravok said, is this how we've handled Jojo in the past? I don't recall us ever holding the different parts as different standards before, I would have thought they did share a standard because they're all still canon to each other.

Edited by papyru30 on Sep 4th 2022 at 8:39:21 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#323069: Sep 4th 2022 at 7:39:35 PM

Um yeah, that is the part I am finding the strangest. We have always judged JoJo by the same standard in the past, so why should we suddenly start not doing so now? I don't care much to vote on the character but I don't understand.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#323070: Sep 4th 2022 at 7:42:25 PM

I’m voting to keep J Geil. He’s just a minion who manages to pull off a horrific niche my being one of the very few rapist in Jojo

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#323071: Sep 4th 2022 at 7:43:44 PM

Since there is enough upvotes for this incarnation of Omega:

Edited by xie323 on Sep 4th 2022 at 7:45:57 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#323072: Sep 4th 2022 at 7:52:10 PM

I at no point said I wasn't taking the whole heinous standard into account, I said Angelo and he were from different Parts and it wasn't as simple to compare and contrast as it is with the argument we've used to keep Kira off by comparing to Angelo. Geil is one of the worst rapists in all of JoJo which doesn't have that many of them, establishes he's done it plenty, threatens a crowd of people and uses a child as a human shield...so yes, I will absolutely be fighting on this one if we want to keep pushing.

Edited by Ravok on Sep 4th 2022 at 7:54:04 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
UsagiSan Mika Misono Since: Jan, 2022 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Mika Misono
#323073: Sep 4th 2022 at 7:53:33 PM

[tup]Omega.

Mika Mika Mika Mika
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#323075: Sep 4th 2022 at 8:15:11 PM

[tup] to Omega

I have seen before in here that usually if the numbers of victims of the character is really ambiguous it's often disqualified, especially if there is another character has done similar crimes but has clear proof to it. J. Geil only has one established kill and rape, Angelo has 3 (also he cut off the dick of another one).

Ravok, i don't understand your logic, you say you do take into account that you judge the heinous standard, but you keep using the arguments that i've already put evidence against (i.e. the only indications that he has even done the killing and raping before is only on a throwaway line) and using other people in the middle of the battle isn't too heinous cause other minor antagonist do it too. It might just be me, but i feel like you need more arguments to back up your claim.

I certainly understand that he was approved and he had a good reason for it, but after discovering the evidence, i am going to argue for his cut.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Sep 4th 2022 at 8:22:25 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)

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