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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#323026: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:27:40 AM

We can wait to discuss Bill. It's too likely he'll be popping up next season.

CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#323027: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:34:20 AM

Oh yeah, didn't count that was a possibility. Guess the old man'll have to wait.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#323028: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:45:01 AM

Okay, I feel stupid...who's Bill?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#323029: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:48:01 AM

Owl House. One other big thing I want clarification on, which would be the make-or-break detail for him, is whether or not all the dead Titan bones are Bill's responsibility or the Collector's. ATM, it's heavily implied that it was the latter and Bill's just a jumped-up asshole riding the Collector's coattails.

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 4th 2022 at 10:51:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#323030: Sep 4th 2022 at 9:52:39 AM

That and the collector is too odd morally to keep.....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#323031: Sep 4th 2022 at 10:16:23 AM

[tup] to Micheal Ridley.

  • FBI: International: "Trying To Grab Smoke": Lloyd Eckersley and Fred Dobbins are a smug, slimy duo of predators, who roped in over a hundred vulnerable young women into there pornography business, falsely promising the material would never be shown in the USA. Personally participaiting in each video, they coerced or flat out threatened their victims into participating in extremely explicit acts, then uploaded the videos online for profit. Fleeing the country to avoid criminal charges, in retaliation they posted the personal information of each woman who tried to sue them online and sent copies of their videos to all their contacts. The resultant harassment leading to Kayla Clancy committing suicide; which Lloyd and Fred proceeded to torment her father over. Setting up in Prague and going into business with Antek Kral, the duo were soon producing videos again with local vulnerable women, whilst using Kral's site to ensure none of their victims videos could be taken down.

Thoughts?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#323032: Sep 4th 2022 at 10:34:18 AM

Also Power Rangers Dino Fury's last batch is coming out on September 29, 2022. If you guys are wondering though. The guy I want to be able to do on CM won't be available for ep toll the next one as that one Cosmic Fury is meant as a direct sequel to this one. Including the old cast returning.

That said I'll have some surprises for you on MB.

PM me.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#323033: Sep 4th 2022 at 10:57:00 AM

A troper by the name of ~El Juaco seems to have been reserving a number of big name works for discussion (film series like Mission Impossible, Avengers and Knives Out, all of which have been handled by other tropers) and none of it has been announced on the thread. Looking through their post history I only see them seldom post here and I'm going to assume it was a good faith misunderstanding since they probably haven't seen our discussion deciding reservation have to be announced here but I'd like to pause and talk about this so we can manage expectation and avoid potential discussion collision.

Edited by 43110 on Sep 4th 2022 at 2:06:18 PM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#323034: Sep 4th 2022 at 11:13:40 AM

They haven't been announcing any of those reservations?

Uh, yeah, for starters, I sort of took it for granted Ravok, Lighty and I would be continuing discussion on What If? after handling the first season. Not amused that was hijacked without even a notifier.

PM them and bring them here.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#323035: Sep 4th 2022 at 11:15:22 AM

[up] & [up][up] PM the troper and explain the situation. Anyone who wanted to collab with this guy can either split the discussion or you guys can talk it out. If it's just a misunderstanding it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Sep 4th 2022 at 2:15:44 PM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#323036: Sep 4th 2022 at 11:56:28 AM

My ping will already message them. I’m leaning on this just being a mistake given going by history of posts the troper doesn’t know our reservation procedures, I included the relevant info in my post so they can view it when they notice the message.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#323037: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:08:07 PM

Also announcing that I'm reserving Fuuto P.I. for discussion and teaming up with Michael for Hollow Knight: Silksong.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#323038: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:12:34 PM

Speaking of the KR anniveraey. Wonder if anyone will count in Shin Kamen Rider who Jackie reserved . Like Shin Godzilla and Shin Ultraman we're both busts but the first season of Kamen Rider has people listed from its source unlike those?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#323039: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:14:05 PM

Dumb question: What's with the word "Shin" in all those titles?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#323040: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:14:44 PM

I'm also just gonna say this...it's hilariously unlikely I'm going to be getting to Kamen Rider Revice in time. There's definitely potentials, but the series has been a Ghost-level mess and my motivation to finish past where I last left off it is pretty low.

Anyone else who's seen the series want to take over that? Discussion starts on the 11th.

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 4th 2022 at 1:18:28 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#323041: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:16:56 PM

[up][up] They're all part of the same universe. They were created by Anno who is the creator of Neon Genesis Evangelion. (He said their apparently supposed to he canon to rebuild of Evangilion) Though Ultraman is more Lighter and Softer than what he normally does as it was his childhood show so he didn't want to do much to it.

Edit: [up]Man this seems to always happen when we do a magic themed Rider season. Kinda weird its so consistent.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 4th 2022 at 12:20:36 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#323042: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:26:36 PM

@ACW: Shin is also Japanese for “New”, mainly sequels or reboots or reimaginings. It’s a common word in Japanese media.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Sep 4th 2022 at 12:34:22 PM

It's Spooky Month!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#323043: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:37:05 PM

[up] Ah, that's what I was wondering.

Also (BTW, I changed the folder name for the FBI group at the L&O Sandbox):

  • International's "Trying To Grab Smoke": Lloyd Eckersley and Fred Dobbins are a smug, slimy duo of predators, who roped in over 100 vulnerable young women into their pornography business, falsely promising the material would never be shown in the USA. Personally participating in each video, the duo coerced or flat-out threatened their victims into participating in extremely explicit acts, then uploaded the videos online for profit. Fleeing the country to avoid criminal charges, the duo in retaliation posted the personal information of each woman who tried to sue them online and sent copies of their videos to all their contacts. The resulting harassment led to Kayla Clancy committing suicide, which Lloyd and Fred tormented her father over. Setting up in Prague and going into business with Antek Kral, the duo were soon producing videos again with local vulnerable women, while using Kral's site to ensure none of their victims videos could be taken down.
  • Season 6's "Brown Eyed Girls" through "Black Hearts": Michael Ridley is the mastermind behind a massive human trafficking ring, kidnapping hundreds of innocent women to either be sold as sex slaves or killed for their organs, with 15 butchered corpses shown on display. Ridley also shows the same callous cruelty to his own employees, with one getting his throat slit and two more getting stabbed to death while intimidating his right-hand man, Anthony Tremel, to try blowing up his doctor Alexander Lark before Ridley decides to coerce Lark into killing himself by threatening his daughter's life.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#323044: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:43:27 PM

Edit: Double post

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 4th 2022 at 3:44:33 PM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#323045: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:44:49 PM

Okay, we're finally getting to a book candidate that I've had on my radar for a while, but it just took a while to finish the third book in the trilogy.

What is the work?

I've talked about the United States Of Monsters before here, so let's get to the specific trilogy. The Bright Falls Mysteries follows Jane Doe, a teenage weredeer who lives in Bright Falls, Michigan. She just wants to keep her head down and eventually get out of town, hopefully to somewhere without a Varmint Law that could get her killed, but before she can, her best friend Emma reveals that her sister (as in Emma's sister) has been murdered, and Jane's brother is the prime suspect. This drags everyone into a vast conspiracy involving gods, betrayal, and a whole lot of history, and at the center of this history? Emma's grandfather.

Who is Marcus O'Henry? What does he do?

Marcus is the Ulfric of the werewolves, essentially being their king, having taken over the position after killing his father during a dispute. Before the Masquerade was broken, Marcus ruled with an iron fist. Among other heinous crimes, he would use his status as Ulfric to rape any shifter he wanted, producing many children with them along the way, would abuse every member of his family, and targeted the family of a Hunter by killing her entire family - except for her son, whom he raised as a wolf until he was eventually sent to his death. The climax of his evil, however? When his sister started dating a Native American (who was actually the Red Wolf, a nature God, in disguise), he led a Lynch mom towards their home. This ended up in the deaths of his own sister and their three children, and when the Wolf revealed himself and his true power, Marcus fled the scene, letting everyone else be slaughtered.

The Wolf cursed Bright Falls to economic despair in retaliation, and in an attempt to appease it, Marcus led a massacre of the Dragon clan, slaughtering everyone there in ritualistic sacrifice (it's noted that while some of them were criminals/satanists and had it coming, the mercenaries he hired were not told there would be civilians) - the only survivor was Lucien, who was spared by Jane's mother Judy. Because the sacrifice wasn't done right (because of Lucien's survival), the Wolf was still unsatisfied, but Marcus eventually discovered another solution - he led his granddaughter Victoria and her friends to the Wolf to be possessed, alongside manipulating it into trying to resurrect his family. This leads to a long chain of events that lead to several things: the Wolf possesses Victoria, rapes Gerald the vampire coroner, kills Courtney and Thomas, and eventually kills Victoria. With this, only two more sacrifices would be needed for the Wolf to resurrect its family, and it tries two more times to get those sacrifices with another one of its hosts not escaping. Jane finally manages to put it down and confronts Marcus, who freely admits that he led his own granddaughter to die and caused all of the Wolf's actions before being arrested.

Prison is not enough to cut off Marcus's power, as he still threatens or eliminates the witnesses to his prosecution and allies with the Big Bad of the second book, Dr. John Winston Jones, who intends to wipe out all supernaturals (save mages) and 2/3 of the human race. Jones intends to harness the power of the Dryad found in one of Bright Falls's forests, but Marcus is working to settle his own debts - first, he sends Dr. Jones to Bright Falls to begin his crusade, giving Jones blackmail material on FBI agent Alex Timmons in the process in order to remove Alex as a threat, and gave the Dryad's guarding Andy Taylor black magic that will eventually kill him. He also sends a griffon after his daughter Alice (because she succeeded him), but he also encouraged her to demolish the forest, even knowing that doing so would release the Dryad and put tens of thousands of lives in danger.

Despite Marcus giving Jones all of these advantages, he's eventually killed in the Dryad's realm, leaving Jane going after Marcus in his cell. Marcus reveals everything that he was behind in this book, only for Jane to pull out a voodoo doll and start stabbing it. As Marcus is dying, he reveals something else he did - to get the resources to pull off everything from behind bars, he allied with the Red Sky, an organization that intends to force all supernaturals back under the Masquerade even though most of them will likely die in the process. After Jane realizes that Marcus really sold out his entire race for a shot at power, Marcus's shredded heart finally stops beating and he dies in his cell.

Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?

Fuck no. Marcus is as despicable as they come - literally the first thing we learn about him is that his walking stick is the same cane that he beats his children with. He outright says he's glad Victoria is dead when he learns of her relationship with a vampire (and he set her up to die at one point), hospitalized one of his daughters, abused the other one, and eventually sold out his people for a shot at keeping power. Marcus is a practically cartoonishly vile person. In the words of Raguel, an actual angel (and this is a good quote to use as well):

He is a murderer of children. This is in addition to thousands of other crimes worthy of death, from slavery to rape. I do not think him capable of following through on repentence, even if he were so inclined.

Is he heinous enough?

As I did with Vlad Dracula, lemme go through everyone in the trilogy to explain why no one else counts:

    Other villains 
  • The Red Wolf/Big Bad Wolf kills several people, rapes the coroner, and intends to resurrect its family knowing that they'll return as monsters - but it's only doing so because Marcus killed them to begin with and Marcus is directing it behind the scenes, so all of its crimes tie back to him.
  • The kelpie is a demonic monster that lives in Darkwater Lake and takes a special thrill out of drowning children, including Jane's cousin Jenny, but it gets an Alas, Poor Villain death.
  • Dr. John Winston Jones intends to wipe out all supernaturals, 2/3 of humanity, erased Alex's ex-partner out of existence, and possesses/kills his own daughter - but he only gets as far into his endgame as he does because of Marcus's backing, and in the end his grand plan (harness the power of the Dryad to take over the world) doesn't get past step one.
  • The third book really ups the ante, but in the process it actually knocks a lot of people out of contention rather than increase anyone's chances. Basically, four different people/entities try to sacrifice an entire film crew in order to resurrect a man named Phillip Tzu:
    • Alice O'Henry, Marcus's daughter and successor, plunges the town into debt to the Vampire Nation to the point that Lucien has to put together a bogus "movie" as a money laundering scheme before they'll become pawns of the bloodsuckers, plus she wants to sacrifice the film crew - but the effects of the debt aren't dwelled on, and she shares the mass-sacrifice with three other people.
    • Preacher, one of Marcus's daughters by rape, was one of the mercs who killed Lucien's family and clan, uses a love potion on Lucien (which is described verbatim as rape in book one), and tries to sacrifice the film crew - but outside of a redeeming quality (she genuinely liked the mercs she worked with and gets pissed when Lucien kills them), she shares all of her biggest villainous acts.
    • Samantha Timmons, Alex's sister, tries to sacrifice the film crew and that's literally it. She's also got a Redemption Equals Death sendoff.
    • The Boogeyman is an ancient entity that feeds off of nightmares, goes after Jane's family, and tries to kill the film crew - but again, that's all it's got, and that's assuming it has agency which I genuinely don't know.
  • Finally, we get to the big boi of book three - Phillip Tzu. This dude is bad - he's manipulated wars, abused his family to the point that his own son killed him, made the deal with the Boogeyman to sacrifice the film crew in order to gain enough power to be resurrected, and intends to subjugate humanity with fear - but ultimately, he's far too complex for CM. Outside of an offscreen backstory where he's lost several attempts at making families, it's indicated he's a genuine WIE who wants to protect all supernaturals, and his abuse of his family was an attempt to make them all stronger. Plus, he offers Jane a place by his side in a surprisingly genuine manner, even pointing out that she could use the opportunity to just kill him later if she wanted and he wouldn't mind, and shows genuine respect when she holds true to her ideals and rejects the offer. He's fucking vile and there are hints that his motives are more self-serving than he says, but he's just far too nuanced.

Marcus, while not having a whole lot of supernatural power, is responsible for "thousands" of crimes, including abusing his family, leading several of them to their deaths, raping any shifter he wanted thanks to the old laws, killing his sister's family and then leaving his impromptu Lynch mob to die, leading the Red Wolf's rampage, massacring Lucien's family and clan including the innocents, helping Dr. Jones in his genocidal quest, and using the resources of the Red Sky, knowingly selling out his entire people in the process. For a comparatively lower tier villain compared to Phillip Tzu or Red Room's Dracula, Marcus is more than bad enough.

Final verdict?

Keep the old wolf.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 4th 2022 at 5:29:35 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#323047: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:49:12 PM

[tup]Marcus

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#323048: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:52:33 PM

Why did Marcus care if Bright Falls was crippled economically?

Also, the werewolf king got killed by a Voodoo Doll?? [lol][lol]

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#323049: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:54:49 PM

Marcus cared because he was effectively the king of Bright Falls, so it was hurting his financials

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#323050: Sep 4th 2022 at 12:56:58 PM

Ah, in that case...even if some of the sacrifices were necessary, the other stuff...I'll give a yes (though I'm still amused he's vulnerable to a voodoo doll. I'm sure It Makes Sense in Context, but still).


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