During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to Narinder and Jan Valentine.
Sorry to hear that Polar, glad your mother is feeling better.
Okay I think I’ve found a quick one. I’ve proposed a few candidates already from Dick Wolf’s FBI franchise. And I think I’ve found one from its most recent Spinoff.
FBI: International stars Luke Klientank as Special Agent Scott Forester and Heida Reed as Agent Jaime Kellet, and focuses upon the FBI International Fly Team based in Budapest, with Scott and his Team “officially” assisting the local European authorities with relevant situations.
“Trying to Grab Smoke” see’s the team brought to Prague, following the murder of a notorious American Fugitive, it being him and his partner who are our candidates, so without further ado I give you Lloyd Eckersley and Fred Dobbins.
Who Are they:
A pair of sleazy, greedy scumbags originally both from Jacksonville Florida, together Lloyd and Fred ran a pornography business, luring in and duping over a hundred young women, mostly between 18 and 19, under the promise that the material was exclusively for private foreign collections and would never be seen in the US.
In reality they simply uploaded the videos onto their own website for the profits. Waiting until after each woman had signed the model release forms, Lloyd and Fred would then coerce (or sometimes flat out threatening) each victim to participate in especially graphic and explicit sexual material which they had not agreed to, with them both personally having sex with each woman for all the videos they film.
Finding out the truth a group of twenty of their victims tried to bring a lawsuit against them, this in turn kicked off a criminal investigation with both men facing charges of sex trafficking, fraud, coercion and even kidnapping. Realising the way the wind was blowing both Lloyd and Fred fled America for Prague, living under assumed aliases.
However, in relation to the lawsuit the sent the videos they had to all the friends, family members and co-workers of each of the women that sued them, as well as posting their names and addresses online with the videos. The harassment that resulted from this proved to be to much, leading to one of their victims, Kayla Clancy committing suicide. With Lloyd and Fred responding by sending her father a box of chocolates with the message “good riddance”.
Setting up in Prague, Lloyd and Fred met up with local sleazy porn businessman Antek Kral, uploading all the videos onto his site ensuring none of their victims could have them taken down. Pretty soon the pair were back in business, using local recruiter Adela Buzek to find them more vulnerable women.
Lloyd was in the process of making his latest victim despite her clear reluctance, when responding to a knock at the door he was shot through the groin and the stomach by Kayla’s sister Ella. He bled to death in agony.
Hearing his partners death Fred attempted to go to ground, but was quickly found by Scott’s team and the local Czech police. He attempted to escape in his car, nearly running over Agent’s Raines and Vo, but was quickly driven off the road and apprehended.
Caught by the authorities, following his pathetic cowardly attempt to seek asylum being rejected Fred was deported to finally stand trial for his crimes. Likewise accessing Lloyd’s computer’s the team was able to find evidence revealing their links to Kral's money laundering operation, meaning that his business was shutdown and their victims videos were finally removed.
Any Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Traits:
Not really. From what we see, both men are utterly remorseless, vindictive and loathsome. Fred in particular make it clear he considers himself the victim for having to flee the country, and smugly mocks his victims as ungrateful when interrogated.
Whilst its mentioned the two are “joined at the hip” there is overall nothing to suggest they actually care about each other. Fred only talks about his dead partner in a matter the fact way, and makes it clear he’s not interested in helping the authorities catch his killer as it doesn’t benefit him.
Granted as he dies at the beginning of the episode, we overall don’t see that much of Lloyd by comparison. But from the little we see he certainly comes across as an equally smug predator, and overall the two are constantly treated as equally culpable by the narrative.
Heinous Standard:
Okay overall International follows closer to the [[Series/FBI original show’s]] heinous standard, with most episodes generally only having one or two murders.
However, whilst the franchise does have a few keepers at this point, as I’ve discussed in the past sex crimes are overall quite rare.
There is that Human Trafficker who was the main antagonist of the big crossover (whom Lighty will discuss at some point or other), but still with it being confirmed the two had over a hundred victims, they certainly manage to standout for an otherwise utterly unremarkable pair of slimeballs.
Conclusion:
Not much to say about them (especially compared to my much more interesting previous duo), but overall I think Lloyd and Fred keep.
Still what do you think.
Edited by MGD107 on Sep 3rd 2022 at 3:56:21 AM
Let us get this train on the rails!
Bullet Train, based off the Japanese novel of the same name, is a bonkers live action anime directed by the guy that did Deadpool 2. About a dozen criminals, assassins and ne'er do wells get on a train from Tokyo all the way to Kyoto, with numerous stops on the way. And each one has a job to do or another reason for being there. This leads to many fights and many hijinks. Our primary protagonist is "Ladybug", a comically unlucky assassin that is trying to turn over a new leaf and be a positive presence - meaning no killing. Naturally his luck makes this difficult. He wasn't even meant to be on this train, he's filling in for Carver, but he was ill so Ladybug has to pony up. You can see why he thinks he's cursed.
For some background, one of the Assassins on this train is "The Wolf", a Cartel Hatchet man. He enters the train because someone sent him a message that the murderer of his cartel and his wife were horribly murdered with poison. After a mixup with Ladybug thanks to the latter's atrocious luck the Wolf hilariously dies. But who is the murderer? Who was his target?
Time to talk about "The Hornet".
Who is she? What has she done?
The Hornet is an Assassin whom specialises in Boomslang Venom, shown in film to kill in a horrific and painful fashion. Through Flashbacks we see she has used her poison to murder a Doctor and the guests at a Cartel Wedding. In the story proper, she disguises herself in an anime mascot outfit so she can find her target - The White Death’s Son - and steal the briefcase that has the ransom money for him. She attempts to take the case from Ladybug before murdering an innocent hostess to steal her uniform.
She then ambushes Ladybug, gloating that just one scratch from her syringe is enough to seal his fate - and she succeeds in dropping the syringe into his hand
Only for Ladybug to take it and give her the full dose, correctly surmising she’d have the antidote on her person. They stare each other down as she tries to go as long as possible, but she acts too soon and Ladybug takes the antidote right as she pulls it from her Victoria's Secret Compartment. He is then very upset when he realises it was her only dose. She dies horribly while Ladybug, whom as I said is trying to be more pacifist, humourously tries to comfort and help her.
And while she didn't intend it, the Doctor she murdered? Was the only man that could have saved the White Death's wife, hence why he includes her as part of his plan to have the assassins kill each other.
Mitigating Factors?
Nah.
A point is made to humanise most of the assassins. No such attempt is made with Hornet. She doesn’t even care about the snake she stole, only valuing it for its venom.
Her death is funny in a Black Comedy Karmic Death way with her struggling for anything to ease her symptoms while Ladybug is being annoying with his trying to be helpful. It's great.
Heinousness?
Has the biggest personal on screen kill count of any assassin in the film, only matched by "Lemon and Tangerine" and they're a duo. She murders a couple to a few dozen people and most notably kills several innocent people. For the record, Lemon and Tangerine kill one by accident and Carver, whom everyone agrees is a dick but is literally on screen for 1 second only has one innocent kill on screen - his only kill in fact. She poisons numerous innocent Cartel family members at a wedding, kills a doctor and murders an innocent train hostess. But what pushes her above is just how awful the poison is - we see it is long and painful and she takes nothing but joy out of employing it.
The White Death may be the worst but Hornet is working with much less resources.
EDIT: ACW it is but like. They're already dead. If they were feeding them into the woodchipper kicking and screaming I might have some pause. As it is it's just a cheap, grim gag.
Conclusion
Happy keep for Zazie Beets.
Yes also to Lloyd and Fred, and thanks for the well wishes.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Sep 3rd 2022 at 3:37:27 AM
A single crossover with Chicago PD
Not everything in the same universe needs to be weighed together. Like X files and the wire are canonically in the same universe but giving that a shared canon would get laughed at here.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Not especially. Its officially in the same universe cause it had a crossover with Chicago P.D. (which has had several crossovers with L&O). But aside from one or two Easter eggs, their is no direct connections between them yet.
Edit: Sorry already answered.
Edited by MGD107 on Sep 3rd 2022 at 3:44:40 AM
I'd like to make an addition to Lyblac from Octopath Traveler thanks to new info revealed from it's spin-off, Octopath Traveler: Champions of the Continent.
As it turns out, she manipulated Ceraphina to resurrect her by having her become a god to take revenge on her grandfather by not only starting a cult, but also kidnapping one of the Crossford descendants, Rinyuu to sacrifice to Galdera. Once Lyblac is resurrected, she instantly disposes Ceraphina for outliving her usefulness, before engaging the Chosen One in a battle.
Eh, good enough.Easy yes to the Hornet
Heads up I'm reserving IOI's 007 game
because the guys behind Hitman making a James Bond game is a thing I can not pass up.
Heavily inclined to oppose based on concerns about the bashing nature of the fic (especially given the tone of the EP) and the corresponding issue with semi-auto-erotic troping.
Edit: TBC, that's my personal position, not a summary of the consensus. Most people I saw responding seemed uncomfortable with one or both of those things, though.
Edited by nrjxll on Sep 3rd 2022 at 6:38:20 AM

Yes to Jan.
Apologies for my prolonged absence - I needed to recuperate. Sorry again for the late Prey Discussion - she's OK now but my mum's back went, in that she threw it out. So that was something I had to deal with - fortunately she was much better by the time my nephew arrived.
And now finally I'll do Bullet Train. I'll have my EP up in a few minutes, but for who doesn't count:
The White Death is the worst and I would've done him and was flip flopping on him until he himself said "yes I love my wife that is not subverted". So another Michael Shannon near miss - I know Lighty's looking for a CM role for him, but hey maybe you'll get him some day!
The "Prince" is a young woman that is nasty - she pushes a boy off a roof to lure his father to her, threatening to have the boy killed if he doesn't help her kill the White Death... whom we learn is her father. She kills or attempts to kill a few others and he FE is that she felt "unseen" because she's a woman and her incredibly incompetent brother was favoured - the White Death for his part claims he always "saw" her. Honestly she mostly comes off as a spoiled brat and her claims aren't treated sympathetically, but honestly with other Assassins having much higher body counts ("Lemon" and "Tangerine" killed 16 - wait no, it was 17 - criminals casually in addition to the Bolivia Job which for some reason needed them to us a woodchipper on a bunch of corpses) I feel like even accounting for Would Hurt a Child she just doesn't cut it.
No one likes Carver but he has one on screen kill and literally no personality. He appears for like 1 second. Maybe 2.
And give me ten or so minutes and I'll have my EP for the sole CM I have planned up.