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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#322601: Aug 31st 2022 at 11:52:38 AM

I guess we could wait. Though didn't we cut Superboy-Prime despite being an asshole for awhile? Or was that as he was dying?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#322602: Aug 31st 2022 at 11:54:18 AM

Prime at least you died their and his only major writer is Geoff Johns. That isn't true of Maestro whose gone to a couple of people over the years.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#322603: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:09:10 PM

Though it looks like Maestro's MOSTLY (albeit not exclusively) Peter David, who created him (while Johns didn't create Prime).

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#322604: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:11:33 PM

I am not familliar with Hulk lore but if the author who introduced the redeeming quality is the same as the one who created him and the character is mostly written by him as well, then I am leaning cut Maestro.

And cut the Colonel as well.

Edited by WatTambor on Aug 31st 2022 at 10:12:01 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#322605: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:14:12 PM

The main thing I see is I don't see why we should leave him up. A character being a CM is not the default, this character is almost exclusively one of Peter David so there is no Depending on the Writer, if this redeeming quality ends up subverted later we can always put him back up.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#322606: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:15:16 PM

Has anyone actually read this comic?

If were going to cut. I would prefer we not rely on another website. Especially CBR who are kind of click bait morons

Edited by miraculous on Aug 31st 2022 at 12:16:00 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#322607: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:16:21 PM

Depending on the writer. Josh Reynolds portrayed Mannfred Von Carstein as being still a treacherous monster but also capable of genuine nobility, whereas every other writer has him as a Complete Monster

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#322608: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:21:19 PM

[up][up] They do also provide pictures which look pretty bad for his status on their own, and I don't see how they could have fabricated those.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#322609: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:32:49 PM

Wong sounds like a cut

How's about some quotes for the recently approved candidates before I drop my writeup batch?

For Hannah:

    Quotes 

1.

Jaune Xiong: You kidnapped me.
Hannah Steele: And?
Jaune: You kidnapped me! And you kidnapped an innocent who has nothing to do with any of this. She doesn't know about the gangs, the war or anything. Tammy has no part in any of this!
Steele: Is that so? You should be more open with one you date. Lying is not healthy in a relationship.
Jaune: You-
Steele: Nor is raising your voice to me if I can be honest. Let me be frank. I can ask you politely to respect me as my position demands, or I can order my men to cut a finger from your lady and deliver it here still bleeding. Or I can patch a call through so that you can hear her screaming as it is cut off. Which would you prefer?

2.

Jaune Xiong: Aren't you afraid I'll betray you?
Hannah Steele: I'm aware of the possibility but I am not afraid, no. You will either collect people into your alliance and betray them to me, or you shall collect them and betray me. All that changes is whether are killing every gang in Vale at once, or every gang minus one. We're capable of both.
Jaune: And if I go and tell the Alliance about this?
Steele: Then what? They feel threatened and expand their alliance. It is the same result for us either way. Of course, it's not the same result for you. We torture and execute your girlfriend, cut her body to pieces and spread her outside your club for you to see.
3.

Jaune Xiong: You monsters.
Steele: That is exactly what we are. Then again, it's exactly what you are as well. Or did you think that those you killed didn't have people who loved them? So, from one monster to another, let me ask you - which will it be? With us? Or against us?
Jaune: I need time to think.
Steele: You need time to scheme and plot a way against us, you mean. Perhaps you'll think clearer without any troubling emotional attachments. Let me just have your girlfriend killed and then- Oh? Have you already decided?
Jaune: You can't possibly think I'll have any loyalty to you after you do this.
Steele: You can't possibly think we care. We don't. Loyal, fearful, love, hatred. It's all the same - nothing more than emotional attachments used to justify why you make one choice over the other. If the result is that you do as we say, that's all that matters. I believe you told Lieutenant Storm that we were afraid of you. If we were truly afraid, we'd just kill you. I am not Dominic. I am no Atlas Gentlewoman. I am a disgraced soldier, a war criminal, and I embrace it. You're good at talking, Arc. I'll give you that. I'm not, which is why I'm quick to turn to more physical methods to get what I want.

For Adam:

He sincerely doubted Adam's iteration would be fighting them either, as there was indeed another Jaune, but he was kept in an iron-barred cage on his knees. He had a metal collar around his neck and another linking his wrists together and then to one of the bars. His clothing was filthy, his skin much the same, and Jaune could swear some of those splotches were bruises.
Was this his iteration or had he captured someone else's?
Apparently, he wasn't the only one with that question. "Did you seriously torture your own ally?" Magnis asked. "Didn't Jinn tell you of the war like she did me?"
"Hmph. The blue-skinned woman who spoke of gods and gifts?" Adam scoffed. "Yes, she spoke to me. Spoke of my cooperation with this human and my place in this war. What of it?"
"That doesn't look like cooperation." Yang said. "Looks like you're treating him no better than an animal."
Beneath his mask, Adam's lips stretched into a cruel smile. "Isn't that what he is? An attack dog summoned to fight alongside me. A weapon. Do you let your weapons run amok, human? No. You keep them sheathed until you need them. Contained."

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#322610: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:33:11 PM

Nope, Maestro ain't a cut—it's the Bruce-human side of Maestro that flips out when his mother is involved...the actual Maestro personality promptly "kills" the part of Bruce's mind that's trying to give him this conscience and sneers to the Bruce half that he's weak for letting such emotions threaten the Maestro's existence while mocking the dead mother. The entire plot of his foes was to exploit the subconscious human-Bruce side of Maestro with memory of Bruce's mother, and Maestro himself responds by mocking the idea and further cementing his lack of care for anyone but himself.

This is really yet another case of people needing to stop jumping to cut a long-standing character over rudimentary shit like "a clickbait article said he had a redeeming feature!" without even verifying the info. An article is not going to have the full story, folks.

Cut to Wong, though.

Edited by Ravok on Aug 31st 2022 at 12:33:35 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#322611: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:33:36 PM

Can Adam's stuff be formatted into normal dialogue. Think its good otherwise.

Edit: [up]And now keep. This is why you read a work before you also for one v

Edited by miraculous on Aug 31st 2022 at 12:34:12 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#322612: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:37:21 PM

That is a bit confusing, I thought that the whole point of The Maestro was that The Hulk side had completely taken over and merged with the Bruce side.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#322613: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:37:58 PM

So instead of that, make Adam's this one?

Jaune "Magnis" Arc: Did you seriously torture your own ally? Didn't Jinn tell you of the war like she did me?
Adam Taurus: Hmph. The blue-skinned woman who spoke of gods and gifts? Yes, she spoke to me. Spoke of my cooperation with this human and my place in this war. What of it?
Yang Xiao Long: That doesn't look like cooperation. Looks like you're treating him no better than an animal.
Adam: Isn't that what he is? An attack dog summoned to fight alongside me. A weapon. Do you let your weapons run amok, human? No. You keep them sheathed until you need them. Contained.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 31st 2022 at 3:38:39 PM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#322614: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:39:00 PM

Cut Wing, keep Maestro.

[up][up] comics are confusing, so I ain't surprised really.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Aug 31st 2022 at 3:39:33 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#322615: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:42:24 PM

The Bruce part awoke long enough to try to fight Maestro for the sake of his mother and Maestro shut that right down, not much more to it. I have gotten up a shitload of Peter David characters on here, the dude might as well have a love affair with this trope and subverting redeeming features, so I didn't believe for one second this was at all legit, and lo and behold...

Dig the quote, STAR!

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#322616: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:42:26 PM

Yes to the quotes.

Switching to keep on Maestro.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#322617: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:43:28 PM

Btw Ravok do you wanna expand him with his recent stuff.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#322618: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:43:39 PM

[tup] to the quote as well.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#322621: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:45:58 PM

I guess I will use the Maestro quote for the Hulk page as well since it's the only one with any upvotes.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#322622: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:47:37 PM

I like the Brian Banner, but whatchagonnado?

Peter David loves his Adaptational Villainy [lol]

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#322623: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:48:17 PM

Overlord can handle the expansion, I have very little experience with Maestro, I just tackled this issue because I knew Peter "Bait the Dog" David was almost assuredly not going the route CBR was painting it lol

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#322624: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:49:52 PM

I can reread Future Imperfect and try and find a better quote.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#322625: Aug 31st 2022 at 12:51:29 PM

Accidental double post

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Aug 31st 2022 at 12:51:52 PM


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