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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#320526: Aug 9th 2022 at 10:09:40 AM

That and a legit FE, and a semi-sad death.

EDIT:Disregard, thought the question was about the movie

[tup] to Ape dudes

Edited by Snoketrope on Aug 9th 2022 at 10:11:29 AM

Bow to the Prototype
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#320527: Aug 9th 2022 at 10:34:50 AM

@ACW, @Snoke Yeah, Let There Be Carnage had Carnage have a mind of his own and be an equal participant with Cletus, but with no redeeming qualities like Cletus did.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 9th 2022 at 10:35:22 AM

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#320528: Aug 9th 2022 at 10:45:42 AM

The latter one is the only one I can think of where Cletus himself absolutely does not count. Doesn't he have loved ones or something?

Loved ones? Cletus? Aside from the symbiote? Let's see... as a child he was abused by his father and grandmother, who frequently beat him, and ended up murdering the latter.

After being sent to the local Orphanage of Fear he was bullied by the other boys and staff, but befriended a fellow orphan named Billy Bentine after he took the blame for a fire Cletus had started as a prank. Cletus eventually snapped and burned the orphanage down, with only a handful of survivors.

As an adult, Cletus disavowed his friendship with Billy and hunted him down with the intent of killing him, but Carnage: It's a Wonderful Life shows he subconsciously treasured Billy's friendship and couldn't bring himself to kill off that memory. Carnage: It's a Wonderful Life also indicates that his nihilistic sociopathy is a facade — a lie he's told himself so long and often he came to believe it himself — due to not being able to cope with the harshness of life — i.e. being dumped by his girlfriend for dropping out of high-school.

Carnage Vol. 2 shows he was horrified by his father having accidentally murdered his mother while beating him (though in AXIS: Carnage he admits his memories are faulty), and at the end of Maximum Carnage he dug up his mom's grave and absconded with her coffin after having a mental beakdown from getting blasted with a Care-Bear Stare.

And then there's Shriek, who he's variously said he intents to kill once she stops amusing him and has flown into a rage over when someone — IIRC either Senator Ward or Mister Sinister, and Deadpool — hurt her. He did use her as a sacrifice to summon Demogoblin, but that was 1) when he was high on Knull's power and 2) with her consent, and Demogoblin possessed her corpse and merged their consciousness with hers to become Demagoblin.

Edited by Arawn999 on Aug 9th 2022 at 10:46:59 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#320529: Aug 9th 2022 at 10:49:17 AM

I was talking about the film, though that's interesting about Comic!Cletus.

Then you've got my Carnage, where both are simply gleefully psychotic.

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#320530: Aug 9th 2022 at 10:51:21 AM

[up] Ahh... I was talking about the 2022 Carnage comic by Ram V, not Venom: Let There Be Carnage (which came out in 2021).

Edited by Arawn999 on Aug 9th 2022 at 10:52:11 AM

MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#320531: Aug 9th 2022 at 11:00:44 AM

Very annoyed to announce this, but Midnight Suns has been delayed to sometime between October and March 2023. Will keep an eye on it tho.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#320532: Aug 9th 2022 at 11:20:51 AM

With Depending on the Writer for comic characters who a reoccurring nature, how consistent do you guys want them to be irredeemable? Because obviously sometimes a character randomly has a Pet the Dog etc but it never fully negates them

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#320533: Aug 9th 2022 at 11:22:03 AM

Got another fanfic proposal, with a familiar franchise and character.

What is the Work?

Shang Tsung: Sorcerer Supreme is a Mortal Kombat fanfic that as you probably could have guessed focuses on Shang Tsung. The fic is kind of a rewrite of Aftermath as some of the same dialogue is used but the basic plot is totally different. I am guessing you can figure out who we are talking about.

Who is Shang Tsung and What Has He Done?

So this fic takes place after Mortal Kombat X. Shang Tsung after his death in MK9 is able to resurrect himself by absorbing every single soul inside Ermac to gain his body back killing Ermac in the process. Shang Tsung is left at the mercy of Kotal Kahn who gives Shang Tsung the choice to either face execution or be banished to Earthrealm, Shang Tsung chooses banishment where he is left at the mercy of Raiden. Raiden plans to execute Shang Tsung in three days which Shang Tsung pretends to accept going off to his island to live out his final days.

Shang Tsung in reality has no intention to accept this and is scheming to conquer Earthrealm and merge all the realms together. Shang Tsung teams up with Noob Saibot and the two first head off to take on Sub-Zero and Scorpion, the two defeat them and Shang Tsung absorbs their souls. Shang Tsung then heads off to try and recruit Kano and when he refuses Shang Tsung kills him as well as absorbs the souls of both him and a crowd of spectators. He then goes to the Wu Shi Academy and kills and absorbs the souls of everyone inside.

Shang Tsung lets Noob Saibot weaken Raiden so Shang Tsung can swoop in and finish him off. Shang Tsung, to no one's surprise, betrays Noob Saibot and kills him. Shang Tsung then faces down Raiden and defeats and absorbs his soul. Shang Tsung then heads over to Outworld then Neatherrealm kills its rulers and takes them over. Shang Tsung would take over Outworld merging it with Earthrealm and forcing the Neatherrealm to submit it to his will. He would also create a soulnado to the heavens providing him with an endless amount of souls to feed on. As well as using Onaga's army to conquer even more realms now dubbing himself the "Sorcerer Supreme"

Does He have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

He is Shang Tsung so nothing to talk about at all.

I will mention that this story isn't the longest. However, it is still nearly 6000 words and while it does feature a lot of Shang Tsung doing bad things it does have a basic plot setup aligned with meaningful interactions between other characters, with Chapter 2 not even having Shang Tsung doing any evil stuff. While Shang Tsung does end up pulling a The Bad Guy Wins the heroes are given a chance to defeat him they just end up losing so it's not a hopeless situation.

Does He meet the Heinousness Standard?

With hundreds to thousands to possibly millions of deaths and absorbing the souls of every one, along with Shang Tsung having already committed all the crimes of his MK 9 counterpart. Eventually also took over the realms merging Earthrealm with Outworld and creating a soulnado to the heavens to feast on an infinite number of souls. Yeah, he pretty easily passes this.

Final Verdict?

I will say yes.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#320534: Aug 9th 2022 at 11:44:15 AM

Sure to Shang.

As for Barzini...I'm fine with him counting, but that bit about "lose their souls" isn't from him, but from some other Don Zaluchi:

"I also don't believe in drugs. For years I paid my people extra so they wouldn't do that kind of business. Somebody comes to them and says, «I have powders; if you put up three, four thousand dollar investment - we can make fifty thousand distributing.» So they can't resist. I want to control it as a business, to keep it respectable. I don't want it near schools - I don't want it sold to children! That's an infamia. In my city, we would keep the traffic in the dark people - the colored. They're animals anyway, so let them lose their souls."

Ergo:

  • The Godfather: Don Emilio Barzini is initially an ally to the Corleone family. In truth the architect of their downfall, Barzini is the secret backer of drug dealer Virgil Sollozzo and Don Philip Tattaglia. Trying to have Vito Corleone murdered before initiating the death of Luca Brasi, Barzini masterminds the resulting gang war, with many dead on both sides. Barzini attempts to kill Michael Corleone, instead murdering his young wife in Italy, while having Carlo Rizzi viciously beat his wife Connie to lure her brother Sonny Corleone to his death. Using a peace talk to strip Vito of his remaining power, Barzini intends for drugs to be distributed to minority neighborhoods, before deciding to have the new Don, Michael, killed and then eliminating the rest of the family.

Edited by ACW on Aug 9th 2022 at 2:55:13 PM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#320535: Aug 9th 2022 at 11:50:05 AM

[tup] to Shang Tsung

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#320536: Aug 9th 2022 at 12:01:01 PM

I'm aware it's Zaluchi, but Barzini knew and wanted that to be the plan. Fix as you like

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#320537: Aug 9th 2022 at 12:05:38 PM

It's got character pages btw ACW.

Atlantis1930 Since: May, 2012
#320538: Aug 9th 2022 at 12:11:39 PM

[tup] Shang Tsung.

I have another potential keep from The Bill, specifically the Series 9 episode “Living It Down”.

DI Frank Burnside investigates two young boys, Vince and Mike, who have absconded from a care home with a 13 year old girl called Debbie in tow. Suspecting them of being responsible for a spate of local burglaries, Frank tracks them down to a grotty home in Sun Hill where they are found and returned to care. However, it also leads him to a particularly unpleasant individual…

Who is he?

Michael Welsh, the shifty owner of the house. Welsh at first seems like a laid back if slimy man who willingly lets teenagers use his home as a safe house. As you’ve probably guessed, Welsh is not your regular sleaze or petty criminal. Welsh is in fact the head of a prolific local child porn operation.

What have they done?

Welsh’s MO is simple: grooming children from care homes with money or illicit substances, Welsh persuades them to star in a film where he rapes them. That done, Welsh then disseminate the material to a list of clients long enough to fill the pages of a small novel, making hundreds from each sale. A total victim count is not revealed but the pattern that is established and additional dialogue make it clear he’s done this a LOT, as multiple children from both the same care home and elsewhere allege that they were victims.

When Vince and Mike crashed at his home with Debbie, Welsh wasted no time in getting to “business”. Plying the boys with alcohol, Welsh encouraged them to brutally gang rape Debbie whilst he filmed the whole thing and participated himself for fun. Finished, Welsh created a video tape and gave it the shudder worthy name “Debbie’s Delights”, planning on disseminating it to his contacts as soon as he could like all his other illicit material. But that's when the Sun Hill cavalry turn up and arrest Vince and Mike, with Welsh soon following when the rape is revealed and the tape is unearthed. Welsh is then jailed, putting an end to his vile operation.

Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse?

Like hell.

Heinous Standard?

Of the hundreds of episodes I have seen of this 2400+ total show (talk about Archive Panic!) Welsh is EASILY one of the absolute worst criminals depicted. Whilst he lacks the Serial Killer element of fellow child abuser Donald Blake, he has almost as many victims (3 shown, with far more stated). Although we only see Debbie’s ordeal on screen, it’s more than clear that Debbie’s rape is the tip of the iceberg and he’s done this to dozens of other children in the local area, as his contact list is HUGE and it's firmly established he's been doing this for quite a while with no interruptions. Added to that, child sex predators like Welsh are rarely depicted and of the ones I have seen so far, he handily ranks alongside Blake as the absolute worst. A yes.

Conclusion?

Keep the prick.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#320540: Aug 9th 2022 at 1:06:48 PM

[tup]Welsh.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#320541: Aug 9th 2022 at 1:09:28 PM

[tup] to Welsh

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#320542: Aug 9th 2022 at 1:35:38 PM

Yes to Shang and Welsh.

My own writeups:

  • "Kouketsu" arc: Kouketsu is a former horse feeder from Raoh's army turned cruel tyrant. After Raoh's death, Kouketsu enslaves many of his generals by threatening to starve their children, working countless men to death to expand his agriculture business. Casually killing those no longer needed and using their corpses to further fertilize his land, when his serfs revolt Kouketsu spitefully plans to starve them all to death with their children. Confronted by Kenshiro, Kouketsu reveals his ultimate soldier: a man pumped full of muscle enhancing and mind dulling drugs to the point he can do nothing but kill on Kouketsu's command.
  • Ninpuu Sentai Hurricaneger:
    • The Evil Will or "It" is a hateful entity as old as time itself. Seeking to destroy the universe, the Evil Will spreads prophecies, communicating with Tau Zant to draw him closer to it. When finally summoned, the Evil Will cackles how all will die before it remakes a reality where it controls everything and begins rending the Earth apart with its power.

I will also be attaching the following to the latter entry...

Reviewing the dialogue—staying strictly on topic here for various reasons—here are the final points I'll be leaving on the Evil Will:

  • It explicitly communicates by way of prophecies which can be understood by those with an evil heart. Tau Zant says he hears "It's voice" and sees "It's vision" while fulfilling them on Earth.
  • Prophecies are received by Tau and in the past Ikki as well, we know the Evil Will is sentient, malevolent and leaving instructions to summon itself, so I fail to see it as a stretch that Ikki, after hearing from it. His son explicitly says he was forbidden to study the meteor, we know that's how the Evil Will speaks to evil people and that's what drove his obsession with experimenting. I don't think it's a stretch at all to assume some influence here, especially from a corruptive force.
  • As it's summoned on Centipede, Tau monologues about its will being to destroy the universe and rule over one it remakes in its image, he repeatedly refers to it as the "will" of the being he's summoning. It's made clear in no uncertain terms this intent was something recently shared with Tau but a goal of the Will for a long time from that.
  • We see mass destruction when "It" is triggered, the Evil Will boasts to the Hurricanegers that the world he desires will be brought about and revels in the destruction. While Tau and Sandaaru ride off its malicious scheme I fail to see how its plan being spelled out to be the destruction of everything, sending meteors Tau can explicitly understand and interpret as word and having a clearly sentient Anti-God which hates the universe, sponsors an evil space pirate to go about collecting the items for its summoning and lording over its plans to destroy all ("I've waited for this day for so long. You will not stop me now!") is also enough to say it's observing and approving of Tau's schemes along the way. If someone feels my interpretation is incorrect that's fine but I'm not going to stand for besmirching remarks or claims my arguments are being pulled out of thin air.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#320544: Aug 9th 2022 at 1:39:06 PM

[tup] to Kolp, Colonel Arvo, Sinistro, Shang Tsung and Michael Welsh.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#320545: Aug 9th 2022 at 1:39:09 PM

[tup] to the Cossutius rewrite, the Malefor quote, Kolp, the Schuyler Belial quote, Colonel Arvo, Sinestro, Shang Tsung, and Michael Welsh.

Tentative cut to Colonel Clayton Box.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#320546: Aug 9th 2022 at 1:45:37 PM

I think I forgot to cast an official vote but I'm also leaning cut on Box overall... it sounds like even if he doesn't quite understand it being a sociopath and all he does have some genuine love for his mom wedged in there.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#320547: Aug 9th 2022 at 2:16:09 PM

[tup] Shang Tsung and Michael Welsh.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#320548: Aug 9th 2022 at 2:43:00 PM

Yes to Shang Tsung and Welsh

I missed Barzini's proposal but I got to vote no to him. The problem for me is that we don't really see much of the mob war in the film. I may be misremembering some dialog mentioning a bigger conflict but as far as stuff we physically see goes, his people kill Brasi, Sonny, and Michael's wife, with the added crimes of almost killing Vito and Michael and having Carlo beat Connie, while the Corleones kill Bruno, Solozo, the police captaian, and three of their own traitorous members. It's a tough call since Barzini is someone that I've debated for a long time but I just can't see it even with the drug pushing.

Edited by papyru30 on Aug 9th 2022 at 3:44:14 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#320549: Aug 9th 2022 at 3:00:31 PM

There is definitely a broader conflict when they're talking on the score of things. The casualties between the Corleones and the Tattaglias are quite broad.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#320550: Aug 9th 2022 at 3:14:10 PM

[tup] to Sinistro, Shang Tsung and Michael Welsh.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff

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