Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

With regards to the Golden Sun entry: I don't think that Alex counts. I don't think what he does is heinous enough to count. He is sociopathic but doesn't go out of his way to kick puppies.

I can't give much insight into the other two though since I haven't played through all of Dark Dawn.

@3176

That's not an answer. It doesn't tell the forum anything. Post a possible write up or go in-depth about his depravity at least. Don't just tell me he's a worse Bad Boss than Cluny. We need context in order to make informed decisions about examples.

I could accept Cipher being cut, both due to the whole "no groups" rule and the fact I never actually played the Orre games, but I'm going to have to support Ghetsis' inclusion. Him being considered a Complete Monster has been one of the few things the majority of Pokemon fans can agree on ever since his debute, and based on translations, he's gotten even worse in Black and White 2.

And if nothing else, he definitely surpasses the heinous standard in the setting, at least in the main game.

It's not just "the most heinous in the setting," a character also has to meet a baseline of heinousness in general. And it was pointed out just how weak comparatively all the arguments in favor of Ghetsis are - they don't reach the baseline heinous standard for this trope.

I'm starting to feel like this is yet another case like Discord or Yakone. Is there something about franchises aimed towards the 4-10 age category that fosters this kind of obsession?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessed over this. I'm just saying that, if its ultimately decided to cut him, there'll probably be backlash.

But whatever decision is made, I myself will be able to deal with it.

Okay, just in reading the Pokemon page, someone needs to do something about that dense, in-joke-y entry for Ghetsis. Poochyena kickers? What the fuck?

But as for judgments:

- Ghetsis: A lot of his actions seemed to be based on Fridge Horror/implications, and I don't think there's enough concrete evidence to consider him a monster. The only things I see going for him are that he broke his son and tried to impale the player-character, which, considering that the first game involved a mass kidnapping and hostage situation in a public building, doesn't seem as bad as the endless bullet points would suggest.

- Team Plasma: A group. Automatic axe.

- The things under Team Plasma: all very vague. I would need someone to explain to me more about them to judge. Right now, cut for lack of explanation. Greevil should also be cut for being "borderline" and for having a Heel Realization.

- The Ghetsis/Cipher team-up thing doesn't even seem to be rooted in canon. Axe.

- Darkrai from Pokemon Mystery Dungeon actually seems to count, unless being wiped of your memory - because you're just that evil - would disqualify him. The spoilered example does need to be less spoilered.

- Purple Eyes from Pokemon Ranger needs to be condensed greatly as well, but the ritualized torture of multiple characters, in addition to basically rewriting Giovanni's old plot to use Mewtwo to control the world, does have merit. Leaning towards keep on this one, with the provision that someone get rid of all the natter.

I am really surprised no one tried to put Giovanni on that page. Just saying that for right now.

edited 13th Sep '12 12:13:28 PM by LargoQuagmire

The Pokemon Anime page did have Giovanni though...

I think the reason that no one tried putting Game!Giovanni on the list was because he came across as a generic mob boss character back in R/B/Y and he appeared to have done a Heel–Face Turn (Though he did threaten Red with physical harm, and FR/LG makes him somewhat darker by removing said Heel–Face Turn.)

Both Characters.Tales Of Symphonia and Characters.Tales Of Vesperia have "invoked" examples.

I beat both of those Tales games; I'm on it.

If groups, don't qualify, then does that mean the Abanian sex-traffickers in Taken don't count? It is a pretty big group, and Taken 2 shows they have families.

^Do they have families they love, or just families they abuse?

I think it's a moot point whether or not they loved their families. Groups don't count. Now, if there was an individual amongst the kidnappers who got some variety of character development, that individual would count. If they gave it to all of the kidnappers, then they could all count - but that'd be one absurdly long movie.

My suspicion is that it's basically one of the "What Do You Mean... For Kids?" tropes (which I cannot tell apart) in action: most tropers are not in the 4-10 age category and therefore feel the need to "justify" being fans of franchise aimed at that group. Claiming that Kids Show X has a CM makes it more "adult" and therefore more acceptable for them to be fans of.

However, this is all basically Internet Cold Reader stuff and irrelevant to the thread proper. On which note, I'm preparing that assessment of Video Game Monsters in a bit, though I'll say right now that I don't think anyone from Pokemon but Darkrai and Purple Eyes (is that seriously his name?) might count.

Any opinion about the Pokemon Anime page?

Can't offer an opinion, but given the way things are going right now, I believe both pages should be merged if there's enough good anime entries to make a case, with Monster.Pokemon Anime made into a redirect.

edited 13th Sep '12 3:49:54 PM by EarlOfSandvich

Wow, my childhood knowledge of Pokemon is paying off in SPADES today. For starters, though, we need to do serious Pokemon rewrites if and when we come to consensus on the examples. A lot of them have multiple bullet-point natter.

- Giovanni: Depends on if his treatment of Mewtwo, who is shown to be obviously sentient and far more intellectually capable than pretty much every other Pokemon in existence in the first movie, as on-par with the same treatment in a human. If so, then Giovanni would count, for using Mewtwo as a torture tool while simultaneously torturing him. I would argue that Mewtwo greatly differs from other Pokemon in the series, being capable of almost complete human reasoning, and that torturing him is on a far greater heinousness level than torturing, say, a garden-variety Pidgey. Mewtwo also, because of this, goes on a crazed rampage in the first movie, his moral system so broken from Giovanni's manipulation that he believes all humans are ruthless killers. Giovanni does also cause major harm and some sort of brain damage to Gary during the first arc of the series, just to keep him from getting a gym badge. I say keep, but I can see where this would go either way.

- The Scientists from Master Quest: I don't know if this counts as a group, or if this is shorthand for Namba and Sebastian, who are mentioned prominently in the write-up. I would say cut them regardless; their heinousness doesn't reach levels of Giovanni or Hunter J, below.

- Hunter J: my only unambiguous keep. She's the only person in the series proper to ever try and murder Ash, who is eleven, and, while torturing Pokemon is usually a sign from the anime series that someone is bad news, she also shows a disregard for the life of her own minions, who are human.

- the Pokemon Poachers: axe. Compared to J and Giovanni, not heinous enough.

- Cyrus: eh, I'm torn. Sounds like a Generic Doomsday Plot to me. Axe?

- Vicious: Offscreen Villainy results in an axe verdict for me. Also, too many "implications", a la Ghetsis.

- Grings: There are WAAAY too many spoilers on that example, and the ecosystem example isn't very relevant, but from what it says - strangling what is basically a God Pokemon, killing someone on-screen in cold blood, kidnapping, and a few more attempted murders - Grings sounds like he's on the same level as J. Keep.

- Sird: Need more detail. Axe.

- Masked Man: It's an aversion? Lolno. Axe.

- Archie: I don't know what our stance on driven-mad characters is, but even so, most of his villainy, again, is offscreen. Axe.

- Charon!Manga: I'm sorry, in the grand scheme of Pokemon, I find it hard to believe that being somewhat Genre Savvy makes you a complete monster. Unless Charon knew that nothing would be accomplished AND did some truly heinous acts, axe.

- Ghetsis: Axe, based on the fact that I think his game counterpart should be axed as well, and there's little information here about what supposedly makes him "worse" in the manga.

- Charon!Diamond and Pearl: I'm gonna say suicide bomb is pretty extreme behavior for a Pokemon media, and I'm leaning towards keep. But again, someone needs to let me know more about what else Charon does.

So should I act on the thoughts for the Video Games subpage, or is there anything else to bring up for them.

edited 13th Sep '12 4:50:33 PM by EarlOfSandvich

what about emperor taychon from ratchet and clank future: tools of destruction?? he attackedthe lombax's who raised him as a egg for petty revenge and left ratchet a orphan and manipulated azimuth into helping which ended up ruining his life. or is taychon a woobie destroyer of world's??

also what about erwin from pac man world 3?? he tried to wreck both pac world and the spectural realm for the sake world domination. he drove this one dude crazy. he shows ZERO remorse. he knows the ancient's tried to do the same thing he doing and didn't give a crap. he set place's on fire likely killing many and hes the most darkest pac man villian ever

and also what about the evil twin's from crash twinsanity who wanted to drain all the goodness from crash's diminsion into their and showed no remorse and are even stated to be eviler then uka uka

and also i think ben 10 needs it's own complete monster page

What about them? None of those descriptions sound in any way like a Complete Monster.

Emperor Tachyon: You just admitted he may count as a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. And so what if he attacked the people who raised him?

Erwin: Sounds like a Generic Doomsday Villain

Twins: 'Stated' matters nothing. And that action hardly seems to be monstrous, something as vague as 'draining the goodness.'

Ben 10: Does it actually have enough Complete Monsters to be worthwhile?

Anyways, as to the Video Game Sandbox page:

There was debate on if Actrise from Castlevania counts. That description is a little better, but she doesn't do a whole lot. She only says she sacrificed her own child, and a hundred others. (Offscreen Villany) She does have Carrie's cousin (I think it was her cousin) turned into a vampire and sent to kill Carrie. Still, kind of lacking in the solid villany.

The description of Greyfield for Advance Wars seems pretty lacking. Screwing around with your own troops (Giving annoying orders on which type of units can't move this turn) is annoying, but hardly monstrous. His monstrous acts do include executing his own men for being infected with the Creeper Virus, executing a surrendering enemy commander and ordering every enemy soldier to be killed, and nuking his own soliders in order to kill one man. Honestly, I'm not sure he really is Monstrous.

I'll review some others next post.

edited 13th Sep '12 6:36:06 PM by TriggerLoaded

i was merely wondering if he counted as woobie destroyer of world's but i still think hes likely a complete monster instead since he was the one who made ratchet a orphan and caused azimuth to go down a path of sorrow. pain. guilt and madness which led to his death in the great clock and he drove the people who loved and raised him away into another diminsion out of petty spitful revenge

i am convinced it's likely taychon is indeed a complete monster and not a woobie destroyer of world's. he seems pretty evil

@ Largo: Yeah Pokemon!

Grings: Spoilers need to be fixed, and the ALLCAPS need to be removed, but I'd say he's one to keep.

Viscious (That's his name, I thought he was the masked man): Doesn't have enough going for him on screen, he's worse than the usual, but not a CM

Masked Man: Who is he again?

the Pokemon Poachers: I agree, fail heinous standard.

Hunter J: Remove any part mentioning that she was one of the only villains Killed Off for Real, and keep her.

Archie: Cut

Giovanni: Manipulating Mewtwo and using him to not only beat, but assault (Possibly Mind Rape) Gary and his Girl posse/cheer squad is pretty bad. He also may have had a master plan for Unova (Episode is, however, band, so we don't know). He is Orcus on His Throne most of the time to me, so I'd wait for more arguments.

@dilong, do you mean all versions of Ben ten?

edited 13th Sep '12 6:49:48 PM by DrPsyche

Still sounds like a Generic Doomsday Villian to me. Vote against.

@3194: Tachyon never struck me as particularly heinous, just kind of generic and goofy. And it'd be understandable of him to try to wipe out the lombaxes after they wiped out his own, admittedly evil, people. Also, the Twins want to suck out all the goodness in Crash's world and transfer it to theirs? Wouldn't that mean they've trying to do something good for their world, or is there more to it?

@3175: Heh, I'm surprised you actually adopted the sig. Anyway, yes the Heavy Rain examples do attempt to replicate their crimes onscreen. Also, the game has a feature where if one of the protagonists dies, in this case Madison, they die permanently and, if you choose to continue then the story will go on without them. Though the taxidermist appears in a prequel DLC where it's possible for Madison to die, she's always alive in the main game. His crimes still take place in the main game's continuity, it's just that any ending of the DLC where he actually kills Madison would branch off as an Alternate Continuity separate from the main game.

@3193: With the examples 32 brought up, I editted some of them to try to make them more palatable, and removed the group examples from Diablo. For the other examples:

• I-No: I agree with her being a sociopath, but beating people up doesn't seem like it meets the heinous requirement. Unless she's done more that's not mentioned, I vote cut.
• Sakaki: I'm leaning towards keep based on the current entry and the fact that he doesn't care possibily inflicting comas/death on people.
• Etrian Odyssey example: I guess I'd need to know why she's trying to keep the Deep City secret to know if she's a Well-Intentioned Extremist. But trying to kill the hero doesn't seem heinous enough.

edited 13th Sep '12 7:27:11 PM by OccasionalExister

Found this in the Gundam section:

• Zanald is just as bad as Decil. He pushed Zeheart into battle in order to get credit for capturing Kio. Later, he commands his henchmen to kill Zeheart and Fram. And after that, he kills Dean, causing Kio to forsake his Technical Pacifism and activate his Gundam AGE-FX Burst Mode.

Uh...really? IMO he fails the heinousness standard compared to Decil. It seems he wants to keep glory for himself and it mentions that he kills a friend of a hero. The thing is, bad guys kill good guys, they're supposed to do that. It also mentions that he's a backstabber, but dosen't explain why it means he qualifies. This entry overall dosen't make him that heinous compared to Decil. It needs to be clarified to explain why or cut.

And this is Decil's entry, tell me how Zanald is as bad in comparison this:

• Decil Galette of Gundam AGE is what happens when you take the Enfante Terrible trope and turn it Up to Eleven. A seven-year old Blood Knight and Vagan Ace Pilot when first introduced, Decil sees war as a game, and his victims as nothing more than expendable toys. As the pilot of the Zedas, he spearheads genocidal attacks on colonies, and is implied to be the one who orphaned Yurin L’Ciel. He subsequently Gundamjacks the AGE-1, and tests out its capabilities by butchering his own allies. He later captures Yurin, puts her inside of a remote-controlled mobile suit, and forces her to attack her Love Interest, Flit. When Yurin tries to fight off his control, Decil kills her, while laughing about how she was “just a plaything.” That’s all in the First Generation. By the Second Generation, he’s thirty-three years old and has, if anything, gotten worse. Deeply resentful of his younger brother Zeheart for being promoted past him, he takes more and more insane risks. This ultimately leads to getting most of the Magicians Eight killed as a part of a grudge match against Flit and murdering Flit's friend, and Flit's son Asemu's mentor, Woolf. It gets to the point where Zeheart, realizing what his brother has become, leaves Decil to die at Asemu’s hands in the aftermath of a losing battle.

edited 13th Sep '12 7:16:44 PM by xie323