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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#319601: Jul 27th 2022 at 6:48:40 PM

The likely explanation is that he wanted anyone to take up the Guardian's role (like the red headed girl) and didn't intend to release her after the bargain.

There are far worse retcons in the spinoff. Sure Yann, I'm totally buying that Vigrid tried to send Thorgal to his death to get Aaricia for himself in The Sacrifice even though he enthusiastically did save Thorgal's life in that volume. *Sigh*

Edit: Sorry if i'm derailing the thread.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Jul 27th 2022 at 3:57:22 PM

Mimic45 Since: Feb, 2017
#319602: Jul 27th 2022 at 6:53:10 PM

[up]Agreed. The spin-off about Thorgal's childhood is possibly even worse in that respect. But this is probably not the best forum thread to discuss this...

Edited by Mimic45 on Jul 27th 2022 at 3:53:36 PM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#319603: Jul 27th 2022 at 7:24:08 PM

[tup]Nidhogg & Agony

leaning no on Joker

Edited by nwotyzal on Jul 27th 2022 at 7:24:37 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#319604: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:31:17 PM

[tup]Dr. Agony

Honestly....[tup] Joker here. The niche of "forcing all of Arkham to kill each other" is pretty nasty given his low tier

By the way, who reserved Digimon Survive?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 27th 2022 at 11:33:22 AM

Watch me destroying my country
TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#319605: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:51:03 PM

So i am curious on one candidate that has been approved for a long while.

Loptr from Bayonetta 2 is stated to be an Evil Counterpart to Loki and the main antagonist from said game.

However, the fact that he's an evil counterpart has me doubtful of his moral agency status. Isn't he Made of Evil? Or is he like Mephiles the Dark where he does have full consience and chooses to be evil?

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#319606: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:52:21 PM

Well being an Evil Counterpart on its own doesn't disqualify someone, we have many examples of that. It becomes a problem if the villain is forced to be evil and can't be good, if the villain is an Evil Counterpart of the hero but is still choosing to be evil they are fine.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#319607: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:52:40 PM

I mean, being an Evil Counterpart alone doesn't automatically mean the guy doesn't have agency.

[up] [nja]

Edited by Powermaster201 on Jul 27th 2022 at 12:52:58 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#319608: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:56:28 PM

Loptr is fully cognizant of who and what he is. On our rules? He's fine

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#319609: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:57:58 PM

From what i've heard, it's never stated that he isn't made of evil.

And yeah evil counterparts aren't automatically disqualifying but i was wondering because this one is the half of Aesir, a god that also split into Loki, both instated to be the evil and good counterparts respectively.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#319610: Jul 27th 2022 at 10:03:51 PM

We have rules that allow for this here, ditto how it worked for Lords of Shadow or Zanza.

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#319611: Jul 27th 2022 at 10:06:02 PM

Yeah. I had a feeling that he was aware of his role, but i just wanted to clear that doubt in my mind.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#319612: Jul 27th 2022 at 10:36:26 PM

[tup] Dr. Agony

[tdown]Joker.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#319615: Jul 28th 2022 at 3:05:45 AM

[tup]Agony

I could go either way on the Joker really. He's not super heinous, but he's still pretty bad. I'll abstain for now.

Atropos writeup:

  • Atropos is one of the three Fates, alongside her sisters Clotho and Lachesis, with Atropos cutting the threads to end people's lives, something she took pleasure in doing. Relentless in her search for the Loom of Fate after it was dismantled and scattered Clotho/Charlie, Atropos massacres her way through everything in her path including: Charlie's old punk band, the Supernatural film crew, and several of the Legends. Atropos kills either by stabbing her victims, or showing her true form described as having one's insides burned out, while also being willing to torture her own sister Clotho to make her submit. In order to stall the Legends stranded in London, Atropos summons a Zombie Apocalypse to ravage the entirety of Great Britain. The Fates use the Loom to rewrite reality, creating "Loomworld", a world devoid of freewill and choice. Atropos forces her workers to sanitize history's records, while killing people on a whim.

Edited by Snowy66 on Jul 28th 2022 at 10:47:29 AM

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#319616: Jul 28th 2022 at 4:36:24 AM

[tup] for Uminosuke, the Master Org vid, Barzini, Raimy, Platinum Stevie, Kevin Thorn, the Scientist, Big Meat, Infinite, Niddhog, Garut, and Dr. Agony.

A tentative [tdown] for Nail!Joker.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#319617: Jul 28th 2022 at 5:34:01 AM

Oh btw ACW. Since you've recreated the Arrowverse sandbox, there is something I wanted to bring up.

I think it might be better to scrap the "pre-crisis" folder thing and just folderize based on shows. Atropos is actually a post-Crisis example, yet the previous Legends keepers are both pre-Crisis. So with the current layout, we'd need to list Legends twice just to do the Crisis split.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#319618: Jul 28th 2022 at 6:08:28 AM

I have no problem listing it twice if necessary; after all, we do that for the main DC stuff.

Is Atropos the only Post-Crisis CM besides Miguel Robles?

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#319619: Jul 28th 2022 at 6:14:01 AM

[up]Yeah only those two. It's not just the listing twice thing, but like 99% of the stuff is under one single folder, which kinda defeats the whole point of folders?

If there was an equal amount of stuff for pre- and post- then that'd be another story. But as of now, it's not really ideal for search optimization imo

Edited by Snowy66 on Jul 28th 2022 at 6:17:29 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#319620: Jul 28th 2022 at 6:19:20 AM

Yes to Dr. Agony. No to the Joker.

I think the Arrowverse page is fine. We as a thread decided to organize it as that and I see no harm in it.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#319621: Jul 28th 2022 at 6:19:47 AM

I mean, we could have more stuff, couldn't we? Are any Arrowverse shows still on?

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#319622: Jul 28th 2022 at 6:22:50 AM

Only Flash, S&L got decanonized. Yes to Agony.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jul 28th 2022 at 9:23:07 AM

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#319623: Jul 28th 2022 at 6:33:29 AM

[up]Not quite outright non-canon. They set it on a different Earth to Earth-Prime, so kinda like a Soft Reboot of the verse.

[up][up][up]oh I see.

idk, just not sure we're going to get much in the way of post-Crisis keepers with so many shows ended. Where would the placement be for a keeper who debuted pre-Crisis but stayed around post-Crisis?

[down]Okay

Edited by Snowy66 on Jul 28th 2022 at 6:48:23 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#319624: Jul 28th 2022 at 6:43:14 AM

[up] If it's the same, probably Post, like we do with the comics (see: Darkseid).

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#319625: Jul 28th 2022 at 6:45:20 AM

[tdown] to Nail Joker once again. Also, he never says the Arkham inmates have to kill each other to my memory. Just fight to see who's the one to become his sidekick.


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