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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#318526: Jul 17th 2022 at 2:32:32 PM

Nay to Kincaid.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#318527: Jul 17th 2022 at 2:33:47 PM

[up][up] I'm not trying to do that I am simply giving my vote and providing a reason.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#318528: Jul 17th 2022 at 2:35:41 PM

Eh, sure to Francisco I guess.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#318529: Jul 17th 2022 at 2:35:52 PM

But he already said it. Why does it need to be repeated for the like sixth time?

Like let me give you an example. Plenty of random bad guys in Toku to "destroy the city" and it's simply not played to being all lives will be lost compared to actual big bad villains who when they try will be felt to the main villains? Is the idea we now need to list these random dudes because it's played seriously than when it has no meaning for these actual random villain?

Edited by miraculous on Jul 17th 2022 at 2:38:38 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#318530: Jul 17th 2022 at 2:42:22 PM

I will just remove the link then, maybe I didn't really need to add that.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Bariton3 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#318533: Jul 17th 2022 at 3:00:06 PM

Based on the EP, [tdown] to Kincaid. Can't imagine any way this is played seriously enough.

I'd once considered trying Trevor Thomas because he cuts the fuel line of a ship with seven other people on it during a storm, but it's all but confirmed that those seven people survived on a desert island. It's the punchline of what's ultimately a JOKE. It sucks the horridness of the idea out of it.

[down]I was giving an example of why the seriousness is not prevalent in that case much like it's not here. I could've said that though to make my point clearer.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 17th 2022 at 3:27:33 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#318534: Jul 17th 2022 at 3:19:36 PM

Future, that's...the kind of thing you could've kept to yourself.

I don't understand why people keep not learning about comedy villains.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#318535: Jul 17th 2022 at 3:19:39 PM

Not feeling Kincaid.

Yes to Ballas however.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 17th 2022 at 6:23:06 AM

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#318536: Jul 17th 2022 at 3:34:31 PM

I found this on Sympathetic Slave Owner

  • Tamango:
    • Capitaine Ledoux (literally Captain Gentle or Goodnatured) considers himself a good man, as evidenced by the fact that his ship could contain a lot more slaves, but he makes sure they each have a space five feet by two feet across ("after all, negroes are human too") and has them walk around the deck for an hour every day before locking them back in the hold, chained lying down ("after all, once in the colonies they'll be standing more often than not"). The story is set after slavery was outlawed in France.

Can I just say "No"? I put back the link to the story so you can check it out. At the start of the story, Ledoux displays some BS standards, that he crosses later by overloading his ship with children, and making them walk an hour is basically Pragmatic Villainy and even then he cracks a whip to make them dance for kicks. Ledoux is apathetic to the dozen of slaves who die under his "care", scams a warlords to get more cheap slaves, whips a girl for rejecting his advance (and possibly rapes her afterward). He's hardly sympathetic.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#318537: Jul 17th 2022 at 4:02:44 PM

[up][up][up]I get what your saying Lighty, but your statement is a bit broad. It would be better to clarify pure comedies. There have been shows where comedy is the central and most important element, but there is enough drama and other story elements to make it a potential for candidates.

I myself am keeping an eye on the Metalocalypse movie coming out some day soon for a potential, and that's about as pitch Black Comedy as you can get yet has its fair share of non comedy elements to compensate.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#318538: Jul 17th 2022 at 4:19:02 PM

[up][up] I read the story and I agree that these traits of Ledoux do not make him sympathetic.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#318539: Jul 17th 2022 at 4:33:29 PM

[tup] for Executor Ballas.

[tdown] for Jonathan Kincaid.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#318540: Jul 17th 2022 at 4:43:18 PM

[tup]Ballas

Now leaning [tdown] to Xenoblade 2 guy

IPP Wick Check created.
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#318541: Jul 17th 2022 at 5:09:29 PM

[tup] to Francisco Granados, the Jackal rewrite, and Executor Ballas. Keep Sōsuke Aizen.

[tdown] to the Faceless Ones and Jonathan Kincaid.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#318542: Jul 17th 2022 at 5:13:19 PM

[tup] to Marie Sanfon, Martin Flanery, Doctor Nye, Lt. Jeffrey Setter, Rawlings, Francisco Granados and Executor Ballas.

[tdown] to Jonathan Kincaid. Having seen the episode, he's not even treated as the most serious antagonist the castaway's have to deal with.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#318543: Jul 17th 2022 at 5:36:09 PM

[tup] Ballas, Francisco

[tdown] Kincaid

Looking at the Grimm page wouldn't it be easier to read having the page divided by the major antagonists (seems to be Renard, Baron Samedi, Conrad, German translation of "Destroyer") and the minor villains (the ones not listed)? Or is that page laid out in order of appearance?

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#318544: Jul 17th 2022 at 5:54:57 PM

is it possible to nominate someone for another poster similarly familiar with the work to look into, or at the least not have an EP ready right away, and merely shelve it for future ref?

[tup] Ballas

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Jul 17th 2022 at 5:55:16 AM

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#318545: Jul 17th 2022 at 6:00:28 PM

[up] Who's the character you're on about?

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#318546: Jul 17th 2022 at 6:11:42 PM

@WetFlannels

Work: Shiki (manga, anime)

Tomio Ookawa

Tomio Ookawa is a major antagonist in Shiki. A villager that was already infamous in Sotoba for being a complete jackass, he takes it upon himself to lead total genocide against the Shiki when their conspiracy is ousted in the final portions of the story. Ookawa ironically leads to the destruction of his village when he begins murdering anyone he believes conspiring with the Shiki, including his own people and slaughtering a whole temple of innocent monks and neglecting the mental health of his fellow townsfolk, and encouraging their worst traits of violence.

Mitigating Factors

He has a son he abuses at every turn, though it's somewhat Played for Laughs. When his son is turned into a Shiki and cornered, he takes it upon himself to kill him, citing it is "his shame" as a father to let him go down as he did; note his son is pleading for his life this whole time but he has no sympathy. Also, at the very end, when confronting Sunako, he does accurately point out she started a genocide against humanity, though it's portrayed as completely hypocritical in a darkly comedic way considering he's soaked in blood and what he's done up to this point.

Manga

Manga Tomio Ookawa is a slightly different character. While his actions and role are the same, it omits the bit where he feels some shame about his son and his criticism of Sunako. Instead, Tomio is revealed to be a closet psychopath that relishes in murderous fantasies, barely being able to contain his urges because of societal norms. When the Shiki emerges, he feels joy he can murder without consequence, starting with gleefully killing his son. After that, it's largely the same, except when he murders the monks it isn't out of paranoia but because he loves it.

Heinous Standard

This is a series where everyone but two characters is flawed or a villain; you have both sides of vampires and humans trying to commit genocide on another, after all. But whereas everyone has some Hidden Depths or sympathetic qualities, Tomio generally has none apart from pointing out the Shiki did start the genocide and provoked him first.

I am sure someone here has interacted with this series to investigate; it's definitely not unknown or obscure despite the weird art style.

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Jul 17th 2022 at 6:14:09 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#318547: Jul 17th 2022 at 6:20:18 PM

No to Tomio from the anime, absolutely not. He's a brutal bastard but he's got humanizing factors the manga pointedly doesn't give him; he cares about his son more than I think you're letting on and his final scene gives him a big Villain Has a Point speech about how the Shiki desecrated a normal community for, ultimately, no justifiable reason. He's a genuine WIE there.

That said, if it wasn't obvious, I'm happy to say yes to him in the manga, where he more seems to be using the Shiki's attack as an excuse to go wild. He's waaaay more repulsive there from memory, especially with regards to his son, and I was meaning to get to him forever.

Edited by Scraggle on Jul 17th 2022 at 7:26:00 AM

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#318549: Jul 17th 2022 at 6:29:19 PM

[tup] to Manga!Tomio

[tdown] to Anime!Tomio

Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#318550: Jul 17th 2022 at 6:30:41 PM

@Scraggle

well, then that's that, especially if you've had reserved plans to get to it. I just wanted to raise the topic so it can have closure.

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Jul 17th 2022 at 6:31:55 AM


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