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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Regal-Secure Since: Jun, 2022
#318101: Jul 12th 2022 at 9:49:19 PM

What is the work?

Infinite Apostles and Twelve War Girls is a manhua and web novel featuring Yu (First Apostle Ulman) who assumes a human form to seek a wife who genuinely loves him, as opposed to a Sex Slave that fears the consequences of saying "no" to his face.

Who is the character?

Second Prince Razzel Kenz is the crown prince of the Kenz kingdom. With the fate of the first prince ambiguous, he's the standing heir to the throne. He is introduced as the Altar Diplomacy fiance of Princess Luna.

What has he done?

(This is all on-screen either in the present or in flashback). He performs cruel and unethical experiments with drugs and poisons on unwilling human test subjects, even orphans. He murdered his step-mother and took his younger twin step siblings, one boy, one girl, into a random orphanage while they were infants and when the girl came of age, had his assassin order force her into the assassination business. The boy was summarily thrown into the slums and abandoned. In the present, he attempts to straight up murder Princess Luna when the marriage neither of them want is annulled in return for Yu providing an antidote for the poisons he inflicted on himself by careless mishandling. During the arc in his home country we learn that when his father, the king, adopted a younger brother for him, he became insulted and enraged at the "upstart commoner" and devoted every spare second to try and destroy him. When said brother succeeded in spite of Razzle's attempts, and managed to put together a very, very skilled and competent knight order, Razzle abuses his father's affection to demand the entire knight order, including his younger brother's fiance, be turned over to him. When that scheme is thwarted by Yu, acting as the official envoy of the Flam empire, by having a pre-existing legally binding agreement with said knight order, Razzle retaliates by "showing how stupid his adopted brother is" and straight up kidnaps the order's members, shoving them into a facility where all of them are converted against their will into powerful and mindless undead known as "Ghost Apprentices." Even with all his power, Yu can do nothing but strike them all down, save the poor guy's fiance, who just managed to hang on by the very skin of her teeth. Razzle murders his subordinates the moment they're of no further use or fail him, whichever comes first. Lastly, he kidnaps Linda, who he believes is nothing more than the heir apparent to a powerful merchant house, and shoves her into an ancient artifact primed by Kyle Polette, whom he also murders to stop anyone from knowing how to shut it off, to unleash a Zombie Apocalypse, turning his entire nation's population into Ghost Apprentices and then using them as an army Take Over the World. He chose Linda for no other reason then the fact that she's friendly to Yu, just to stick it to him for daring to be an inconvenience. He also poisons his father, the king, to prevent the latter from doing anything to slow him down, never mind stopping him. At the end of the arc, during the fight with Yu, he reveals that his entire motivation is that he believes he deserves to be worshipped as a god, and using the artifact the way he does granted him the power of two apostles, purely for the purpose of his own ascension.

Mitigating factors:

None. He has no Freudian Excuse, and has a very loving family home, TOO loving in fact, as his father doted on him to excess and listened to Razzle's requests without second thought.

Do they meet the Heinous Standard?

Yes. While there are plenty of arrogant and petty antagonists who go around kicking puppies for a laugh and will happily start wars for their own amusement, Razzle takes it to an extreme with the attempt to convert his entire population into undead monstrosities. The moment the word gets out, Razzle is publicly condemned by everyone, including his recovering father, and he is canonized as a monster even worse than the devil species which even Yu says has no right to exist because of how heinous they are, as the very embodiment of humanity's evil.

Final Verdict?

Yes, he's a monster, both in and out of universe.

Edited by Regal-Secure on Jul 12th 2022 at 9:52:06 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#318102: Jul 13th 2022 at 1:15:32 AM

[tup]kenz (Good first ep) and Omori.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#318103: Jul 13th 2022 at 1:22:29 AM

[tup] for Nicholas, Marino and Francisco, Omori, and Kenz.

Cut Hayato.

Misry6 Imperfect Disgrace from the Eternal Nothingness Since: Nov, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Imperfect Disgrace
#318104: Jul 13th 2022 at 3:19:35 AM

[tup] Kenz.

Just an empty void…
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#318105: Jul 13th 2022 at 4:16:31 AM

[tup] Omori and Kenz.
Keep Stone and cut Hayato.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#318106: Jul 13th 2022 at 4:51:10 AM

Yes to Omori and Rassel, keep Stone and cut Hayato.

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#318107: Jul 13th 2022 at 5:27:30 AM

So, guys, I revoked one of my reservations (for Hogwarts Legacy) because I would like to focus a bit more on my studies this year.

If you want it, it's all yours.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#318109: Jul 13th 2022 at 6:28:31 AM

A new one:

What's the work?

Watcher is a thriller that's a fair nod to Hitchcock's Rear Window. Julia is an American woman who moves to Bucharest with her husband Francis thanks to his job and sees a man watching her from across the street named Daniel Weber. She becomes increasingly unsettled, particularly with a serial killer roaming about called "The Spider."

Who is The Spider?

A serial killer stalking Bucharest whose work is first seen when Juli passes a crime scene, the victim having been decapitated. This is one of four others, where the women were all stalked, killed and beheaded. One woman was attacked, but survived and talked about how she felt she was being stalked. Julia suspects Weber is the Spider.

Things get bad for Julia. Her husband Francis repeatedly disbelieves her, while Weber appears to be stalking her, increasingly insistently. Her friend Irina in the same building shows her a handgun she keeps for protection. Irina then seemingly vanishes after Julia hears screaming from her apartment.

Things get grim as Weber won't leave her be and informs the police Julia is stalking him while he's caring for his elderly father. Eventually, he corners her on a train and tells her he just cares for his dad and simply watches people as a hobby, and interpreted her lifting a hand as saying him.

Finally done with everything, Julia decides to leave her unsupportive husband and begins packing when she hears something from Irina's apartment...and finds her decapitated body. Weber ambushes her, and slashes the side of her throat, leaving her to bleed out.

Francis meanwhile not finding Julia tries to call her and her phone rings from Irina's apartment, just as Weber emerges....before Francis can realize what's going on, a still living Julia reveals she got Irina's gun and fatally shoots Weber down.

Mitigating issues?

Nope. The guy's a serial killer with 6 victims and two attempted (at least). Weber would be a one-note if not elevated by Burn Gorman's absolutely chilling performance. He's creepy as hell, but effective at playing to others. He manages to present himself to the cops as a victim and while he claims he cares for his elderly father, it's not even clear if the man exists. When he attacks Julia, the mask slips and we see him for a monstrously sadistic, twisted killer.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#318110: Jul 13th 2022 at 6:59:06 AM

This Watcher?

Yes to him. Burn's second after Karl Tanner.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#318111: Jul 13th 2022 at 7:17:53 AM

Ah, yes, sorry didn't find its page

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#318112: Jul 13th 2022 at 7:24:32 AM

[tup]the spider.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#318113: Jul 13th 2022 at 7:27:11 AM

[tup]Weber the Spider.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#318114: Jul 13th 2022 at 7:29:20 AM

Ah. So it's one of those "I deeply care for my father whose name I never say and you never see my father in person...but he absolutely exists and this is not just a false alibi. Trust me."

I'll [tup] Daniel "the Spider" Weber then. And also [tup] Second Prince Razzel Kenz.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Jul 13th 2022 at 10:29:26 AM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#318115: Jul 13th 2022 at 7:41:16 AM

[tup] Second Prince Razzel Kenz

[tup] The Spider

Watch me destroying my country
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#318116: Jul 13th 2022 at 7:41:46 AM

[tup] The Spider Man

It's Spooky Month!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#318117: Jul 13th 2022 at 8:42:33 AM

I have another Zelda Script Fic with two possible ones.

What is the Work?

The Legend of Zelda is a Script Fic written by Brian Murchie. I think it is meant to be an idea of what a movie adaptation of The Legend of Zelda would look like, it seems to be mostly based on The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past but it takes cues from the entire franchise.

Who is Ganon and What Has He Done?

Ganon is once again given Adaptational Villainy and establishes himself as truly wicked. He is the Big Bad of the script. In the past, when he was known as Ganondorf he was a wizard in Hyrule who had a massive lust for power and wanted to claim the Triforce for himself. The masters forbid anyone from doing so but Ganondorf wanted it anyway.

He built up a massive army of creatures and when the time was right he murdered all of the masters and then invaded the Golden Land with the Triforce. Ganondorf slaughtered his way through hundreds of his own men to get the triforce and was able to claim it. The king, learning of what happened, sent hundreds of his best men to take Ganon down but all of them were killed by him and as Ganon was starting to make his Dark World and absorbing tons of people into them, which was starting to weaken the remaining wizards' powers. The last seven wizards sacrificed themselves to seal Ganon away in the sacred realm which he transformed into the Dark World.

Ganon would use Vaati who would successfully sacrifice seven people the descendants of the seven wizards each during the full moon. Ganon would also engineer things so the Vaati would be the seventh sacrifice as Ganon doesn't share his power with anyone.

Ganon is freed and is ready to begin his reign of terror for real this time. He is confronted by Link and Zelda though and together the two are able to defeat Ganon and put an end to his quest for power.

Does He have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Absolutely nothing to talk about, Ganon does offer a deal once for Link but the deal is skewed completely to his favour so not disqualifying at all. He doesn't have any of the same tragic or noble elements as his game counterpart his only motivation is gaining as much power as he can for power's sake and then conquering Hyrule for even more power.

Does He meet the Heinousness Standard?

Hundreds of deaths, with the 7 elders, hundreds killed getting the triforce, hundreds more when murdering anything the king sent after him, along with absorbing hundreds more citizens into the Dark World, hundreds more when transforming the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, a miserable place infested with murderous monsters who were former inhabitants. Along with being the mastermind of Vaati's actions, though admittedly much of what he did was on his own. Yeah, I would say that he pretty easily passes.

Final Verdict?

Solid yes.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#318120: Jul 13th 2022 at 9:49:13 AM

My second one.

What is the Work?

The Legend of Zelda is a Script Fic written by Brian Murchie. I think it is meant to be an idea of what a movie adaptation of The Legend of Zelda would look like, it seems to be mostly based on The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past but it takes cues from the entire franchise. I have already talked about Ganon but his Dragon is quite awful as well.

Who is Vaati and What Has He Done?

First of all, I should mention. There is a canon character named Vaati but I have no idea if this is meant to be the same person or not. He is heavily different from his game counterpart basically taking the role of Aghanim from Link to the Past but with agency of his own.

Vaati was someone who made a deal with Ganon in exchange for power after he was imprisoned, to fulfill it he would need to release Ganon. He would manipulate a massive war by sending monsters after Hyrule and then defeating some of them in order to gain the trust of the king and the queen. This war would kill hundreds of people as a result. Vaati would eventually murder the king and queen of Hyrule and then imprison Zelda and her sisters under the lie that he was protecting them. Vaati would murder each sister one by one during the full moon in order to slowly release each one by one as he needed seven, he planned to save Zelda for last just to make her suffer as Zelda was the only one who was suspicious of him from the start.

Zelda was able to escape though and Vaati would send his minions to capture her telling them to burn Hyrule to the ground to find them if necessary with them destroying a lot of stuff to accomplish that.

Vaati would eventually meet his end at the hands of Link and Zelda with Ganon taking away his powers and Link killing him as a result. Vaati however reveals that while he would have preferred Zelda be sacrificed he is happy as he is the seventh sacrifice and that means Ganon can now be freed, just as one last spite towards the heroes.

Does He have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

He doesn't have anything as well. Unlike Aghanim who mostly takes the role of he has agency over his actions and allies with Ganon willingly in exchange for power. He has no genuine loyalty to Ganon as I already mentioned he only allied with him for power and while he was fine being sacrificed for him that is only as one last spite towards the heroes for killing him.

Does He meet the Heinousness Standard?

Now he isn't as heinous as Ganon with a lower death toll, he only has one war that killed hundreds while Ganon has two separate massacres with hundreds of deaths. However, Vaati is operating with much fewer resources than Ganon, and he is still ultimately a minion of Ganon. Vaati willingly chooses to serve Ganon for power and a majority of his actions are on his own, Ganon told Vaati to free him by sacrificing the seven women but the stuff like the war he started and murdering the entire royal family and choosing to save Zelda for last so she can watch her sisters suffer.

Final Verdict?

I am thinking a yes.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 13th 2022 at 9:49:28 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#318121: Jul 13th 2022 at 10:04:18 AM

[tup] Ganon and Vaati

It's Spooky Month!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#318122: Jul 13th 2022 at 10:41:45 AM

Sure to Vaati.

Incidentally, I made a slight change (in bold) on the Scripts page:

Script Fic can be found here or at the appropriate franchise fan works page.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#318123: Jul 13th 2022 at 10:43:22 AM

I think I've just caught my white whale.

A while ago, I covered a series called Skulduggery Pleasant, starring the titular Skeleton Detective and his teenage partner, Valkyrie Cain, as they went on adventures to protect the oblivious nonmagical world from ancient threats and zealous warmongers that would make Voldemort proud. This series was basically my Harry Potter—well, no, Percy Jackson was my Harry Potter, but you get my point. I liked it. In recent years, an additional second batch six books were released to continue the original nine-part story.

These six books were not good. Not horrible, mind you, but if you're allergic to obnoxious retcons, avoid these like the plague.

Anyway, I've finally read through the final book and have a few thoughts. Current list of keepers here.

  • It's a good thing I moved Serpine to the recurring villains section when he was originally just a glorified Starter Villain/Arch-Enemy, because guess who's back? Apparently his ghost has just been hanging around for the past fourteen years waiting for revenge, as he possesses his alternate universe counterpart (go with it) and escapes in a backup body he had lying around to cause trouble another day, adamant that he'll double down on being the worst possible person he can be after seeing his alternate self on the verge of sort of but not really but almost a little redeeming himself.

  • Lord Vile, Skulduggery's Superpowered Evil Side (go with it), was originally depicted as his rage incarnate, seeking nothing more than unending slaughter and death to everything that lives to satisfy his hate. The penultimate book retconned this—while he was still an omnicidal psychopath who got started on the whole "murder everythings" because he was angry at everything, he eventually shifted his motivation to the more benign "free everyone from the cruelties of life," and modified his own memories so normal!Skulduggery would think it was still the hate thing. This helped get him up as an MB, but I have no idea how this effects his alternate universe counterpart. Some of his zombified followers who retained their sapience claim he also wants to kill everything to end everyone's suffering, but he's also missing the powers that came with his mainline universe counterpart's benevolent shift, and he also does stuff like cut off a guy's face to use as a mask he knows for a fact isn't going to fool anyone, so until we get confirmation on how this retcon affects him I'm not too concerned about good intentions there.

  • Damocles Creed is a more difficult case. Dude's a full-on genocidal maniac who worships genocidal gods. However, the last book, seeing the defeat of said gods, also gives him a bit more complexity. He freaks the absolute fuck out upon seeing them bested, ranting about how our heroes are heathens and how their actions have denied the world paradise (a paradise that would have been reserved only for the faithful, mind you, while everyone else is either tortured in eternal agony or used as slaves), and vows to kill the being responsible in a red rage. All perfectly excusable, he was clearly having a massive ego trip as their high priest and was just coming off of a few months of being Mind Raped 24/7. But a few chapters later, after he's had a bit of time to let it all sink on, it's a bit of an Alas, Poor Villain moment as he reflects on everything with depression.
    Big excerpt 
Creed: Your brother is Auger. You must be worried about him. Of course you're worried. I have a brother, and I worry about him. I have sisters, too, and I worry about them. I worry about their spiritual well-being. They strayed from the true path hundreds of years ago, you see, and try as I might to bring them home, to guide them to the Way and the Light, I have thus far been unable.
Omen: Are you feeling okay, sir?
Creed: No, my child. I am racked with guilt. I have failed in my mission, young Mr. Darkly. My mission, my divine destiny, was to bring the Faceless Ones home. But once they were home I spectacularly failed to keep them alive... I feel better already, I truly do. I still hear voices in my head telling me to do terrible things, but now they're all my voice, which is a refreshing change. It can get quite unsettling to have your head filled with other beings' voices, let me tell you... Now then, tell me why you are here. Do you seek information about your brother, the terrifying being who wiped my gods from existence with a wave of his hand? Not all of them, of course. Those whom Auger didn't erase from reality, those whom Valkyrie Cain didn't murder inside of her, reduced themselves to a single spark. A single, useless spark. My gods, the almighty beings I have spent my life worshipping, ran from adversity and shucked everything that made them who they were like a snake shedding its skin. What would you call such beings, my child?
Omen: Cowards.
Creed: That's exactly the word I would use. I'm at a loss, Omen. I am rarely at a loss, but a loss is where I find myself. I am rudderless. I worship gods that don't deserve my worship and lead a church that has been revealed as a sham. Do you know the one thing I have that is not built on a lie? This place. The High Sanctuary. My role as Supreme Mage. That's what I should focus on. It's the only healthy option. Channeling my energies into the Church of the Faceless will only lead to madness, of this I am sure, but leading the Sanctuaries around the world—that is a challenge worthy of my time and my talents.
  • He immediately gets deposed, though it was pretty obvious he was going to go back to being a dictator. Looking it over, I don't think it's worth a cut yet. The Church of the Faceless is a pretty upfront Religion of Evil dedicated to genocide and slavery, with Creed himself a self-admitted mass-murderer who never shows any guilt for... you know, the genocide and slavery he directly participates in. I don't feel comfortable saying a genuine devotion to the cause is redeeming considering how blatantly evil and self-serving it is, and Creed's reservations seem to come more from his gods not being as all-powerful as he thought they were rather than anything resembling morals, so... I don't know. We'll see how he turns out for the eventual third batch of books.

  • As for his siblings, he tried to kill his sister in a prior book, so that's just him trying to convert them to his brand of worship.

As for Sequel Hooks, there's a genocidal dictator from another dimension and the literal God of the Apocalypse. The former is a bit too vague for me to go off of as of yet, but the latter I believe has enough deeds. The problem, of course, is that it's an unresolved Sequel Hook. Since we don't know how many years it will be until the third batch of books, are there any opinions on whether I should do him now or wait?

Of the characters I'm definitely going to get to, I have one I want to relitigate, one that's been a long time coming, and one I never thought I'd have ever been able get away with beforehand. I'm going to do a little restructuring on the page's sandbox and get to those soon.

Yes to Marino & Francisco, Omori, Kenz, Spider, Ganon, Vaati.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#318124: Jul 13th 2022 at 11:00:05 AM

[tup] to Spider, Kenz and Ganon.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#318125: Jul 13th 2022 at 11:00:27 AM

Emerald: Have fun.

Also, mind adding that Tarkin rewrite from awhile back to the Drafts?


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