During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yeah, the issue I have with Starline is that he's not only a fanboy of Eggman who never completely stops simping for him, and openly wishes for his approval, but that most of his technology was stolen off of Eggman and that he was heavily reliant on the doctor's resources for nearly everything. He didn't invent the Warp Topaz, he didn't create or use the Metal Virus like Eggman did, he stole Eggman's tech to create the Tricore and had to run away when the doctor's forces caught up with him in Bad Guys, he had to reverse-engineer whatever Eggman tech he could find to imbue Surge and Kit with superpowers, and his takeover of Eggman's forces ended as quickly as it began. You could argue that he's low-resources in that sense, but he still wouldn't get as far as he did without piggybacking off of Eggman's resources.
Heinousness-wise, it's shown that the comic takes place after the games up to Forces (or at least a Broad Strokes equivalent, but even then, IDW!Eggman is still explicitly confirmed to have blown up half the moon with the Eclipse Cannon, shattered the world into seven pieces to release an evil entity, and used the Time Eater to tear time and space apart), which indicates there being a similarly high heinousness standard at play, and so the absolute closest Starline has gotten to that point has been merely assisting Eggman with managing the worldwide Metal Virus apocalypse. And what Starline does to Surge and Kit is terrible, yes, but Eggman's own track record in the games has had him treat all his subordinates like crap, abuse and emotionally manipulates Emerl throughout Battle, and in the comic itself infect the village that took in his amnesiac self with the Metal Virus, and doing same with the village where Sonic's friend Cream lives for the same reasons of pure pettiness and sadism. Starline's singular avalanche at White Park was ultimately just a distraction tactic by comparison.
In terms of pure characterization, he— again— actively cares about and wants Eggman's approval as opposed to just admiring the big doc for his evilness, and this is a core tenet of his character from start to finish. It's not even played seriously all the time— he's shown to be crying Tears of Joy at Eggman's first use of the Metal Virus, there's jokes here and there that treat Starline's situation with Eggman as similar to someone experiencing depression after getting dumped by their ex, his lingering conflicted feelings for Eggman are sometimes used to make him look pathetic and whiny (as late as issue #42 he's shown to be giddy about Eggman's achievements— with nothing afterwards to show that he's further developed and grown out of that quirk), he's shown to own a "Live, Laugh, Love" mug in issue #36… okay, that last one isn't as key, but still. Starline isn't consistently played up as purely evil and dangerous. Even Eggman and the Deadly Six have him beat in that regard.
In conclusion, hard
to Starline. He's brutally emphasized as being Eggman's inferior, his view of Eggman is less that he's just impressed by Eggman and more that he wants to be Eggman, and he's given a lot of Sissy Villain traits that are often played for laughs or pity. In my personal opinion, it'd be like giving the likes of Starscream a CM entry for their usual schtick. Dr. Fashion Disaster's a credible threat and a huge jerk, yes, but he never surpassed the Big Bad Wannabe threshold despite how hard he tried.
I agree that other than Palpatine briefly appearing and both doing nothing worth adding to his entry and nothing worth cutting him for—he just manipulates Vader into giving up his pursuit of Obi-Wan to keep control of him—I agree nobody counts at all.
My family saw Top Gun: Maverick earlier and it was great. No keepers. Obviously.
Yes, I'm at least aware of Cyberverse!Starscream— hence why I said "usual schtick" instead of "tries killing everyone on multiple occassions and also sells soul to hideous aliens".
Scraping this over from Code Prime, because people keep trying to Edit War it in and while I think it is good, it still needs approval:
- Complete Monster: Airachnid is as depraved as she is in the Aligned canon; Code Prime just makes it all the more pronounced by actually describing her debauchery in more explicit and visceral detail. Bored, she goes to Shinjuku to massacre countless innocent people in a gory fashion; effectively scarring Suzaku and forcing him to doubt the "Decepticon cause". After rejoining with Megatron, she takes her part in staging the SAZ Massacre; kidnapping Euphemia before the day of the ceremony (and later receiving Cornelia from Megatron) and forcing the princess to watch as her efforts are rendered vain by Megatron's machinations. When Suzaku and Dreadwing attempt to rescue both Euphemia and Cornelia, she uses this to her advantage and attacks Dreadwing, before leaving the Insecticons to their death. By the end of R1, she vows to destroy everything and everyone Suzaku ever cared for. Already merciless as she is, she proves, once more, to be one of the vilest Decepticons amongst the already villainous Megatron's ranks.
Also, for those wondering, Airachnid has been Killed Off for Real in R2, since I think that is now a requirement for a Complete Monster — be truly dead or the work must be finished. Keep forgetting that part.
EDIT: Wait, is it too early to discuss this?
Edited by Flameal15k on Jul 6th 2022 at 5:24:50 AM
Starline's a non-keeper, but heinousness really isn't an issue. Most of Eggman's listed grand schemes like half the moon blowing up, distorting time and space, or earth splitting don't result in any casualties, intended or otherwise. And rarely are they actually treated with gravitas. Starline's machinations on the other hand explicitly endanger hundreds of lives, and are treated with horror and magnitude. What Eggman did to Emerl doesn't negate nor overshadow Starline explicitly torturing, and repeatedly having Surge and Kit killed and revived. I also don't see how him not getting as far as he would without what he took from Eggman being relevant to his heinous levels.
Yes to Otfried
Changing to a
for Starline
Here's a unique Nash Bridges candidate that might make the cut.
What’s the Work?
Season 2’s “Zodiac” is about Nash tracking down the elusive Zodiac Killer, who may have returned to killing after his decades of inactivity. Nash, having been involved in the original case to capture the ZK, takes it upon himself to track the killer down and stop him for good.
But while the killer turns out to be a fanatic copycat named Gary Graham, the final 30 seconds of the episode provides us with enough material for a certain serial killer to count.
Who is He?
The Zodiac Killer himself, one of the most prolific serial killers in America, is the ultimate subject of the episode.
What has he done?
With over 19 claimed victims throughout his entire life, the Zodiac Killer’s influence resulted in Gary Graham trying to take up his mantle, murdering three people in an attempt to surpass him.
After Gary’s killed by Nash, the real Zodiac Killer calls him, thanking him for killing Gary as he taunts the cop about his real identity, before hanging up. Nash quietly reflects on what happened, as this historical event is never mentioned ever again.
Redeeming Qualities?
Zero. Him thanking Nash for killing Gary is just because he wants to brag about being the one true ZK.
Heinousness?
Easily one of the worst serial killers on the show, with a decently high body count, plus his infamy as one of the most notorious killers in American history.
Despite the fact that we never see the ZK in person, his call with Nash, despite its short length, establishes him as a smug egotist proud of his own elusiveness. We even see photos of his past victims in Gary’s room, establishing a pattern, and his presence is felt throughout the episode through Gary’s actions.
Conclusion
As weird as it sounds, I think he keeps.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Jul 6th 2022 at 7:51:34 AM
It's Spooky Month!
Zodiac
Work: Hell Girl
Specific Entry?: 2019 Film
User Interactions: All four anime seasons, 2006 Drama, Mioyosuga
, 2019 film
Foreseeable Nominations: 0
Rejected Nominations: 1
Maki (real name: Honda Takaaki)
Maki, the Big Bad of the 2019 film, is a successful music producer and band leader. Noted to have a long criminal history of domestic violence and drugs, he seemed to have turned his life around. But such is not the case, as Maki instead grew to worship death and the destruction of humanity and the planet itself. Creating a cult under the cover of a boy band, Maki brainwashes his followers with more dangerous drugs of his design, indoctrinating teenagers into the worship of him and his ideals. Maki, in particular, seduces young women with the intent of producing subservient human sacrifices to appease a perceived death god, hoping this evil god will emerge and cleanse everything.Mitigating Qualities
None; this man is a sexual predator and murderer with insane delusions of ending all life on earth.Uniqueness & Heinousness
Hell Girl is an obscenely dark franchise that explores the worst of humanity in a fairly down-to-earth way. There are an innumerable amount of rapists, serial killers, and just about everything in-between from hideous domestic abusers to infant murderers. I believe the niche/distinction that Maki occupies is no oneEdited by Sung-Hwan on Jul 6th 2022 at 11:56:21 AM
Just got back from Thor: Love and Thunder. ‘‘Twas a good time. PM me for those Marvel deets.
It's Spooky Month!Flameal: It's been enough time for Airachnid.
For Otfried: Even aside from whether he was influenced by his father (I need more information on that), is it me, or does he seem somewhat...generic for a fantasy villain?
Zodiac...I'll allow it. Seems as much of an actual appearance as some of our crime show baddies.
Maki...maybe. I need to hear from others (I think Lighty's seen the series).
On Otfried: he was influenced by his father in his childhood, when his greed was actively encouraged. However, by the point the novel begins, Otfried's in his thirties, and his father has performed a Heel–Face Turn after falling dangerously sick.
Plus, as bad as his father was in his worst days, he never went near the levels that Otfried sank to. He would have never conspired with the Bavarians to give away the town's freedom and trading rights, and he never tried to invoke Tyrant Takes the Helm, instead being genuine good friends with the Nice Guy mayor.
The novel itself is historical fiction, not fantasy.
Edited by AutumnLeaves on Jul 7th 2022 at 12:06:58 PM
Alrighty, and now for my final CGW candidate before my writeups. Here, we return to the reboot to look at King Tiger, a hero from the original timeline who somehow didn't get his own miniseries until 2015.
Who is King Tiger's father? What does he do?
As you can guess, we're talking about King Tiger's father. In the past, the man was once simply a powerful archmage, but he made contact with a demon named Canthastius and eventually mated with her. They kept making demon children until they finally had King Tiger - the perfect mix of human and demon that she could use to eventually become corporeal on the mortal plane and help take it over. However, the ritual would involve King Tiger having to die, which he didn't exactly want, so he fled from his family. His dad continued planning without him and eventually found a way to begin bringing her to the mortal plane even if not entirely, doing so by burning 20 people alive in a desert while Tiger can only watch. Tiger barely escapes, but his dad follows him home.
In this confrontation, Tiger's father reveals his past and how Tiger was always destined to die, all while Canthastius begins making her way towards a large city to begin killing its inhabitants. After Tiger's father kidnaps him, he also flies toward the city, but Tiger manages to escape in transit and begins attacking his mother. While Canthastius begins destroying and killing everything in sight, Tiger's father keeps insisting that his children stay in the area even as they end up dying one by one, only caring for eventually managing to sacrifice Tiger. Eventually, Tiger traps himself and his parents in a blood ward they can't escape, so Tiger and his father square up for a showdown. Tiger's girlfriend Rikki drives a car at him, which Tiger's father easily holds back with magic - but Tiger shoots a fire arrow at it to make it explode, killing him. Tiger then uses his and Rikki's love to banish Canthastius for good, saving the day.
Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?
If he did ever love Tiger despite intending to sacrifice him one day (and there is some evidence for that - he gave Tiger good schooling despite his "destiny"), by the present day it's entirely gone. To him, Tiger is now nothing but a disappointing idiot who won't fulfill his "destiny". His other children are also nothing but tools to him - he actively endangers them by forcing them to stay by Canthastius even as she's killing everything, and he couldn't care less when they all die as a result of his plan.
Other than that, nothing. There's no evidence of any kind of care for Canthastius, and his plan is pretty transparently just to have her take over the world, with no kinds of good intentions in sight.
Is he heinous enough?
Burns 20 people alive in a magic ritual to unleash a horrific abomination that begins massacring a large city, a plan which gets all his children killed while he tries to sacrifice his son so that the abomination can spread across the world and remake it in their image? Yeah, he's more than bad enough.
Final verdict?
With a very happy thanks to Scraggle for roping me in to all this, a yes to my final CGW person.

Great villain, but not this
HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA