TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#317051: Jul 1st 2022 at 7:15:35 PM

[up][up]yeah, lets wait for that.

BTW, has Obi-Wan Kenobi been discussed yet?

Edited by nwotyzal on Jul 1st 2022 at 7:16:04 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#317052: Jul 1st 2022 at 7:21:19 PM

Yes to Crux. Tyk has said all that needs to be about Stranger Things.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#317053: Jul 1st 2022 at 7:22:51 PM

[tup] Crux

@Lore I think the beyond deaths door text could work as a quote the best

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
ASghhrv6ub Best Smile from Second star to the right. Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#317055: Jul 1st 2022 at 7:48:42 PM

[tup] to Crux

Shit, it's Tyk's birthday? Happy birthday, my bad for not knowing [lol]

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#317056: Jul 1st 2022 at 7:50:29 PM

@ACW: you forgot to add Abnesti to pending since he has more than 5 votes

Also [tup] to Crux

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#317059: Jul 1st 2022 at 10:59:58 PM

Honestly, I say keep to Bonnie. The joke ending, being just a joke ending that must be locked in a special way doesn't really sound disqualifying to me and I really am not convinced of her friendship with Bear being genuine. Yes, she's quite nice to him, but honestly to me it just looks like a baker acting nice to who probably is a regular client and her telling him to stay safe because of all the disappearances going on kinda loses value when she is the cause of said disappearances.

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#317060: Jul 1st 2022 at 11:11:13 PM

Unless any arguments come up, may lean keep on Bonnie.

IPP Wick Check created.
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#317061: Jul 1st 2022 at 11:53:15 PM

Bonnie's relationship with the bear is really vague, she tells him to stay safe, but the thing is that she is the murderer who kidnaps people at night (and the danger bear was talking about when he said he was worried, which led to Bonnie to tell him to stay safe), so it's ultimate fells flat, since until Bonnie herself decides to make him part of her "ingridients", he is already safe. And everything Bonnie does and says in her half of the game is shown to be simply as something of a "mask", she secretly kidnaps and murders sentient animals off the street, she isn't going to be open about it and she simply uses an image of a good and sweet person so that no one would suspect her of anything. There is no clear cut indication she actually truly cares about the bear.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jul 1st 2022 at 9:54:18 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#317062: Jul 2nd 2022 at 12:55:53 AM

Yes to Crux.

I've not even read the comic, and I hate the retcon just bugs me

I--Vanya--I Hantengu, the Upper Rank 4 from Belarus Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Hantengu, the Upper Rank 4
#317063: Jul 2nd 2022 at 1:47:41 AM

I vote keep for Bonnie. From what I see, her "friendship" with the bear is just a part of her Bitch in Sheep's Clothing persona: she acts like a Nice Girl on public, but beneath the mask she's a murderer who cooks sapient animals to sell as food to public, and her telling the bear to be safe falls flat given that she's the danger he's worried about in the first place, even though bear himself isn't aware of that. There is no clear indication that her care for bear is genuine, and I think it's only a matter of time before she might decide to use him as ingredient as well.

"Ever since the day I was born, I've never once uttered a lie! I'm a virtuous weakling! As pitiful as I am, nobody shows me any sympathy!"
Swiss666 Since: Jun, 2020
#317064: Jul 2nd 2022 at 2:22:04 AM

Thanks to ACW for letting me know the Hirikones have received enough upvotes, as I couldn't check lately. Here's my writeup for New Game Plus (2022).

Edited by Swiss666 on Jul 2nd 2022 at 4:06:01 AM

CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#317065: Jul 2nd 2022 at 2:28:50 AM

Yeah, again, nothing really indicates that Bonnie has a genuine friendship with Bear, especially since the game starts by presenting Bonnie as a good person and then reveal later that she's a murderous psycho. If anything that's Alternate Character Interpretation.

Edited by CapitanoNox on Jul 2nd 2022 at 11:29:15 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#317067: Jul 2nd 2022 at 3:20:40 AM

[tup] for Crux

@Lore Deluxe: I’m going to be honest: I believe the second and the third paragraph only describe what happens to the victims but don’t give the King any personality. If there are ten pages describing a serial killer gruesomely murdering his victims but not a single sentence about the serial killer's thoughts or motives then the Serial Killer can’t be a CM due to his lack of personality. However, the first paragraph where the King that’s about claiming the Player Character as his, that’s what I was looking for. That’s why I’m giving the Sapphir'd King a [tup].

Abstaining on Bonnie. Does she genuinely care for Bear or is she just putting up a facade of a nice person? I can’t really tell.

CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#317068: Jul 2nd 2022 at 3:23:21 AM

Again, seeing how the game tells us that Bonnie is not what she first looks like, I doubt it's genuine.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#317069: Jul 2nd 2022 at 3:35:17 AM

I've carefully reread the relevant part in Les Murails d'Ananke and... I still don't feel like proposing King Ornis. Here's why:

The Bird people treatment of the humans is beyond the pale and well above the baseline. However Ornis? He's barely present and has a grand total of 3 lines. None of those establish a characterization.

Basically he shows up on a grandstand when the latest gladiator games opens. Bob and his friends burn the prisonner camps and start a revolt. Florence then seizes Ornis and put a knife under his throat threatening to kill him should his men not surrender. Ornis yells "Don't move!". A bird shoots an arrow, so Bob repeats the threats causing Ornis to cries "Stop! Stop! Don't Shoot!".Bob asks him to say it louder and Onis complies with the same line: "Stop! Don't shoot".

Next chapter, Bob tries to interrogate him but he remains defiantly silent and is soon taken to the prison. THE END

I know we can have C Ms with limited presence and lines. Myself, I proposed the Pirate Captain who appears in like four pages but still has a full conversation that establishes his personality and goals. Heck even in Ananke, Borold has like 3 scenes but has enough dialogues and we also get more infos and insight about him from other characters (Tar and William Shane).

But for Ornis, even in the rest of the book, we have next to nothing about him. We never learn about his motive, his backstory or his relationship with fellows birdmen. I know Bad Boss is not a requirement for Cmdom but I fail to see how Ornis stand out next to fellow Ananke Tyrants Borold, Ingue and Golo.

All around, I feel like Ornis is little more than a plot device so the heroes can have a conveniant hostage because, otherwise, they're severely outnumbered.

I repeat what I once said about Arturo from Largo Winch: if people here distrust my judgement, you can read the books note  and if you have compeling arguments in favor of Ornis's inclusion, I'm all ears but - for me - I don't want to waste time scrapping the bottom of the barrel for what would be at best a technical keeper.

Swiss666 Since: Jun, 2020
#317070: Jul 2nd 2022 at 4:04:08 AM

[up]x4 Done.

Edited by Swiss666 on Jul 2nd 2022 at 4:04:27 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#317071: Jul 2nd 2022 at 4:05:32 AM

[up][up]Fair enough. So is that all the candidates for now?

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#317072: Jul 2nd 2022 at 9:29:25 AM

So to make up for Moriarty, Mir kindly gave me another Sherlock Holmes candidate to propose.

What’s the Work?

Associates of Sherlock Holmes is an anthology from 2016 about first person recountings from many of Holmes’s closest friends and enemies.

“Peeler”, by Nick Kyme, is the final story in the anthology. Here, we follow Inspector Lestrade as he tries to take down a twisted serial killer, the titular Peeler, who rivals Jack the Ripper in cruelty, with the help of Holmes and Watson.

Who is He?

The Peeler, in actuality Morris Duggen, is a serial killer who prowls the streets of London killing people and taking their skin.

What has he done?

Considered a being of pure evil by Lestrade himself, Duggen was originally a constable who moonlighted as a thief with his fellow constable and partner in crime Arthur Wainwright. Stealing The Duchess painting and several thousand pounds from the London and Westminster, the heist resulted in an incendiary device going off in an attempt to detonate the vault, which resulted in a massive fire. Duggen used the fire to his advantage, faking his death with the charred body of Wainwright’s cousin Archie.

But the fire led to Duggen’s immense disfigurement, ruining his face and preventing him from speaking. So to get around this, and to search for the missing money from the heist, Duggen decided to kill and skin several people in order to construct a mask made from their flesh. Becoming "the Peeler", Duggen’s first kill is Jeremiah Goose, who supposedly stole the money from the London and Westminster and put it in a lockbox. But when he couldn’t find the key to the lockbox at the Alderbrook Workhouse, Duggen set fire to the building so that nobody can get their hands on the money, which resulted in several deaths.

Duggen would go on to kill three more people and steal their skin to complete his mask. When encountered by a young, cherished constable, Duggen slit his throat and attempted to steal his flesh, but he was interrupted by Lestrade. Later torturing and killing Wainwright for the whereabouts of the lockbox’s key, Duggen went back to the burned down Workhouse to get his money. But he’s later killed during a chase with Lestrade, falling to his death as he tries to steal the lockbox for himself.

Redeeming Qualities?

None. Duggen’s a terrible human being who will resort to disturbing murders of innocents and associates alike just to cover up his crimes. The man’s greed personified, killing his own friends just so he can keep all the money for himself.

And while he doesn’t talk, Lestrade describes Duggen forming a faint smile as he commits his crimes, showing how much fun Duggen has murdering and peeling people’s flesh off.

Heinousness?

Dude’s one of the most disturbing serial killers in Sherlock history, with a very unique method of killing straight out of a horror movie, plus his burning of the Alderbrook Workhouse knowing it was full of people adds to his bodycount.

Nobody else counts in the anthology.

Conclusion

Keeper

[down] Oh no. Duggen's always been evil, and his disfigurement is nowhere close to making him sympathetic; in fact, it only makes him more selfish.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Jul 2nd 2022 at 9:35:28 AM

It's Spooky Month!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#317073: Jul 2nd 2022 at 9:32:08 AM

Seems like a yes. I assume his disfigurement isn't played as anything disqualifying or anything.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#317075: Jul 2nd 2022 at 9:40:13 AM

[tup]The Peeler

[up][up]Oh no. He's always been like this. The disfirgurmemt didn't change what was on the inside.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Total posts: 326,048
Top