During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
What's the work?
Alright number two from Nefarious foes of Sherlock Holmes Volume 1. From “The Legend of the Yeth Hound”, by Mark C. Richardson. I give you Hugo Baskervilles. Which huh would be his second cm incarnation. Not bad for a guy canonically dead centuries before the main story.
Who is Hugo Baskervilles?
A cruel, evil psychopath renowned for his sheer brutality to his regiment. Hugo has pitched his favour with the Royalists in their war against the roundheads. Regularly debasing or abusing hi men, he forces them into an attack on a Roundhead manner, planning to wipe then all out. He threatens if they don't attack to rip out their tongues, this naturally leads to them getting overwhelmed and nearly killed.
Hugo becomes enraged and swears that he'd sell his soul to the devil for a chance to win. And hey who would listen....his crew discover a man named the Huntsman. Hugo has the man tortured even threathing to castrate him.
The Huntsman offers his services To Hugo for his victory. Hugo has the Huntsman demonic hell hounds round the royalists and kill them. Even personally capturing the commander and brutally murdering him..
Anyway since he loathes the idea of being indebted to anyone he offers the huntsman some gold. But the huntsman and says he doesn't mind and will get his eventually. One day having one of hounds tear out his throat.
Mitigating factors ?
Nope. He's described as evil incarnate. He does offer gold to the Huntsman for his service but this is explicitly so he wasn't indebted as he hates that idea. Otherwise no.
He's honestly much worse than the Huntsman too. With the torture, mutilation and Bad Boss stuff.
Heinous standard ?
Let's see here. Torture, castration, mass murder, Bad Boss, Drill Sergeant Nasty, the unleashing the hounds on the royalists. Pass.
Honestly as noted he's much worse than the Huntsman who's you know Satan but doesn't get to nearly as much as Hugo here.
Conclusion?
No. 2
Edited by miraculous on Jun 28th 2022 at 8:34:18 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
While looking at YMMV.AI The Somnium Files, I noticed numerous spelling, grammar, and wording errors in Saito's example:
- AI: The Somnium Files: Saito Sejima is the Cyclops Killer, the depraved Serial Killer who Kaname Date was hunting for the entire game. The son of Congressman So Sejima, Saito, who had a condition where he only felt pleasure when he's killing, was infamous for causing mayhem but always got away with it due to his father. Starting off by killing animals, Saito eventually grew a tolerance and decide to upgrade to humans, killing Manaka Iwai out of jealousy for taking the attention of his father. Becoming addicted, Saito enlisted the help of Rohan Kamakura (his name is Kumakura) to kill numerous women for their morbid obsession, as the Cyclops Killer. When Falco started to suspect the duo for the murders, he tried to get evidence from them by swapping bodies with Rohan and trying to gain decisive evidence (redundant wording) from Saito. However Saito caught on and swap bodies with Falco out of curiosity after learning about Psyncing from him. Trapped in Rohan's body with amnesia, Saito later recovered his memories and wished to return to his original body and get revenge on Falco. Now resurfacing as the New Cyclops Killer, he killed numerous friends and associates of Falco by swapping bodies with them and then killing them (he killed them by killing them?), while taking their right eye. He'd kill anyone for his goals, including his father. In the true ending, Saito manages to get his body back and captured (mixed tenses) Falco's love ones, with the intent of killing them in front of him. A complete and utter psychopath, Saito took many lives for his own self-indulgence and need for vengeance.
Proposed rewrite:
- AI: The Somnium Files: Saito Sejima is the Cyclops Killer, the depraved Serial Killer who Kaname Date hunts for the entire game. The son of Congressman So Sejima, Saito, who has a condition which causes him to only feel pleasure when killing, was infamous for causing mayhem but always got away with it due to his father. Starting off by killing animals, Saito eventually developed a tolerance and decided to graduate to humans, killing Manaka Iwai out of jealousy for drawing his father's attention away from him. Becoming addicted, Saito enlisted the help of Rohan Kumakura to kill numerous women for their morbid obsession, working together as the Cyclops Killer. When Falco started to suspect the duo were behind the murders, he tried swapping bodies with Rohan to try to gain decisive evidence from Saito. However Saito caught on and swapped bodies with Falco out of curiosity after learning about Psyncing from him. Trapped in Rohan's body with amnesia, Saito later recovered his memories and wished to return to his original body and get revenge on Falco. Now resurfacing as the New Cyclops Killer, he kills numerous friends and associates of Falco after swapping bodies with them, taking their right eye in the process. Saito shows a willingness to kill anyone for his goals, including his father. In the Resolution route, Saito manages to get his body back and capture Falco's loved ones, with the intent of killing them in front of him. A complete and utter psychopath, Saito took many lives for his own self-indulgence and need for vengeance.
Edited by Zuxtron on Jun 28th 2022 at 11:48:55 AM
Why have just one Hugo when you can have two?
What’s the Work?
“The Beast of the Baskervilles”, by Nick Cardillo, from the same volume, is a more faithful take on the legend of Hugo Baskerville, aiming for a more grounded approach than the more fantastical previous story.
Centuries prior to Hounds, during the English civil war, a royal constable of the Devonshire kingdom recounts the brutal death of Sir Hugo Baskerville, supposedly killed by a demonic hound. With the help of a nameless Wanderer (basically Sherlock Holmes’s ancestor), the constable’s able to piece together the truth.
Who is He?
Sir Hugo Baskerville is a vile knight and landowner who rules the moor of Devonshire with an iron fist.
What has he done?
Using his power and connections to the King of England to take what he wants as his own property, Hugo acts as judge, jury, and executioner, taking advantage of his position to commit as much crime as he can, while forcing certain poor townsfolk like farmer Ronald Hamer to work under his servitude.
With a long list of crimes that the narrator doesn’t want to get into, one such example is when Hugo caught sight of the tavern owner Claridge’s daughter. Hugo forced Claridge to give his daughter over to him to be his property, chopping off one of his fingers when he refused. When the narrator tried to jump in to help Claridge, Hugo threatened to cut out his heart and feed it to his hounds. Days later, after Clardige took his daughter and left, Hugo spitefully had the tavern burned to ashes.
One night, Hugo encountered Sir Humphrey Fairfellow, formerly of Parliament (who fought against the Royalists, whom Hugo sides with). Knowing of his prior alliance, Hugo forced Humphrey to attend his party by stabbing him in the stomach. The party, according to Humphrey, was one of “drinking and lusting and violence”, where Hugo “indulged in all of his craven appetites as if it were his endeavor to succeed in committing each of the cardinal sins for his own merriment.”
Hugo ultimately seeks the Hamer family’s death-–since they were originally the owners of the land until Henry VIII seized the kingdom many years prior–-to protect the Baskerville’s intelligence and legacy, forcing Humphrey to help him slaughter the Hamers knowing that he cares for their daughter Griselda. Having a witchfinder summoned to the Hamers farm, knowing that Griselda was a practitioner of witchcraft, Hugo had him killed under the guise of a demonic hound summoned by Griselda.
Now Hugo seeks to make himself out to be the town’s hero, mainly to increase his ego and get him into a higher position of power. Hugo uses the rumors about the witchfinder’s cause of death to his advantage. Having Griselda kidnapped and trapped in an easily escapable room, Hugo knows she’ll escape by crawling down the vines on the exterior, hoping to pin her getaway on her powers of flight, whereupon he’ll round up his troops, fight off a demon hound conjured up by Griselda, then slay her for good.
After Griselda escapes, Hugo gives chase, having drugged his troops’ wine with hallucinogens in order to fool them into seeing visions of the supposed witch’s great black hound. Hugo then has Humphrey wear a bearskin rug in order to fool the drugged troops into thinking he was an evil hound. But because Humphrey has a vendetta against Hugo, he took the opportunity to decapitate him. But afterwards, Humphrey found out that Griselda had died during her escape, primarily out of fear and exhaustion from her escape attempt.
Redeeming Qualities?
None. Hugo is all about ego, only wanting to preserve his family’s reputation in an attempt to keep hold of his power, rather than any care for his family, which we never even see in this story.
But other than that, nothing. Characters in this story frequently make it a point to claim how Hugo lacks goodness or morals.
Heinousness?
This version of Hugo may not be as bloodthirsty as the previous story, but he’s a realistic depiction of a tyrannical overlord, torturing, murdering, raping (or at the very least claiming several women as his property) and enslaving whomever he wants with zero care for those that stand in his way.
And for a short story, Hugo does just enough. His plans are defined by selfishness and sadism, while his reputation very much precedes him.
Conclusion
Keep
It's Spooky Month!
to both Hugos.
...Oh, great, now Moist and Mr. Pump will be coming round to demand their letters back...
the Hugos
- The Hero of Time: Ganondorf, lacking his usual redeeming qualities, is the king of the Gerudo clan who wanted to take over Hyrule and gain the full Triforce for himself. In the past, Ganondorf was searching for the prophesied hero of time and ended up murdering Link's mother. Ganondorf manipulated the king of Hyrule into making him think he was friendly, then murdered the king, along with a few guards protecting him. Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to take over Hyrule and would tax the Hylians so severely that many of them would fall into starvation. Ganondorf also had his soldiers routinely murder dissidents and anyone who tried to resist, among those being Malon and a large number of the Gorons. Ganondorf would also seal away the sages, placing monsters in their place, the most notable being a dragon monster that leaked lava from Death Mountain that threatened multiple villages.
- The Hero of Time (link
): Ganondorf is presented as the selfish king of the Gerudos. Ganondorf discovers the TriForce (sic) and seeks its power for himself, attacking Hyrule and annihilating entire armies to get it. Ganondorf was defeated by the King of Hyrule, and after being banished, worked for the new king and made his way into his ranks, pretending to be a changed man. Ganondorf would slowly manipulate the king, having Twinrova fully brainwash him, allowing Ganondorf to slowly take over more and more of Hyrule. During his seven-year reign, Ganondorf would starve out the Gorons to complete extinction; freeze over Zora's domain and kill off a large number of them; try to murder his wife when she tries to kill him; and brainwash Zelda and make her his queen. When Link returns, Ganondorf breeds himself an army of Orcs and has them raze entire villages to tighten his grip over Hyrule even further.
I also have a new trim for Fan Works.
Original:
- By the Fire's Light: The Nameless One is a formless Eldritch Abomination that bears a massive hatred for all life on Earth. Using the power of belief to take the form of the Slender Man, he violently slaughters a hapless teenager, tortures his friend Connor, and tortures Jared Holloway, a passing hiker, into claiming responsibility for the crime. Remerging ten years later, Slender Man attempts to kill Connor, who takes his own life to escape. Slender Man then murders a witness to Connor's death, Connor's psychiatrist, and a witness to the psychiatrist's death, killing all painfully in massive fires. Hunting down two elusive survivors, Slender Man breaks Jared out of prison to force him into finding and killing them, tracking them down to a middling hotel. When the pair escape and Jared commits suicide, Slender Man burns the entire hotel down in anger, killing upwards of dozens. To feed off as much fear as possible and expand his power, Slender Man kidnaps hundreds, possibly thousands, of people, the vast majority of them children, and keeps them trapped in a Pocket Dimension where they're forced to endure the pain of being burned alive without the ability to die or escape. Upon being confronted for the last time, Slender Man's power has become so vast that he ushers in the apocalypse, killing all life on Earth.
Mine:
- By the Fire's Light: The Nameless One is a formless Eldritch Abomination that bears a massive hatred for all life on Earth. He takes the form of the Slender Man, he violently slaughters a hapless teenager, tortures his friend Connor, and forces Jared Holloway to admit to the crimes. Remerging ten years later, Slender Man attempts to kill Connor, who takes his own life to escape. Slender Man then one by one murders everyone who witnessed Connor's death or survived which leads to him burning down two separate buildings. To feed off as much fear as possible and expand his power, Slender Man kidnaps hundreds, possibly thousands, of people, the vast majority of them children, and keeps them trapped in a dimension where they're forced to endure the pain of being burned but unable to die, eventually leading him to bring about the apocalypse.
Also here is a fun fact the Fan Works page currently has 34 instances of Adaptational Villainy being used, makes sense I supposed.
Slight change:
- By the Fire's Light: The Nameless One is a formless creature that bears a massive hatred for all life on Earth. Taking the form of the Slender Man, the Nameless One violently slaughters a hapless teenager, tortures his friend Connor, and forces Jared Holloway to admit to the crimes. Reemerging ten years later, Slender Man attempts to kill Connor, who takes his own life to escape. Slender Man then one by one murders everyone who witnessed Connor's death or survived, which leads to him burning down two separate buildings. To feed off as much fear as possible and expand his power, Slender Man kidnaps hundreds, possibly thousands, of people, the vast majority of them children, and keeps them trapped in a Pocket Dimension where they're forced to endure the pain of being burned but unable to die, eventually leading him to bring about the apocalypse.
Edited by ACW on Jun 28th 2022 at 2:09:21 PM
Does anybody have a hold on AI: The Somnium Files - nirvanA Initiative? Because I think there might be a candidate here.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>

So I couldn't help but notice no one has claimed The Princess on the discussion dates. I no one else minds, I might just call dibs having seen the trailer.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."