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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#316176: Jun 23rd 2022 at 9:20:10 PM

Cruz only kills one person. That’s not enough so [tdown] to him

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#316177: Jun 23rd 2022 at 9:22:33 PM

[tup] Mephistopheles and Ramsay

Keep Ruthven

[tdown] Cruz

Misry6 Imperfect Disgrace from the Eternal Nothingness Since: Nov, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Imperfect Disgrace
#316178: Jun 23rd 2022 at 11:02:52 PM

[tdown] Ernesto. I remember the movie crystal-clear and he doesn't make it. All he does is commit one murder (while definitely a Moral Event Horizon crossing, it's not enough for this trope) and two attempted ones. He also seems to be genuinely Affably Evil at some points, as he saved Miguel's life when there was no reason to do so and seemed to genuinely decide to let him return to the Land of the Living with his blessing until he found out that Héctor was Miguel's great-grandfather.

Just an empty void…
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#316179: Jun 23rd 2022 at 11:17:03 PM

If you wanted to maybe you could find a fanfic version of him that counts, can't say for sure that it will work though.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 23rd 2022 at 11:17:11 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#316181: Jun 24th 2022 at 12:57:38 AM

[tdown]Cruz

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#316182: Jun 24th 2022 at 1:28:29 AM

Lighty: "I've got someone who"

Think your phone cut off the final word? [lol]

Dimon Since: Mar, 2017 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#316183: Jun 24th 2022 at 1:57:47 AM

What is the Work The work is Kirby and the Forgotten Land, a platformer in a Kirby series of games. Kirby franchise is mostly a Sugar Bowl setting, but Vile Villain, Saccharine Show almost always applies.

'Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

The Candidate is Fecto Forgo/Fecto Elfilis, the main villain of the game.

Elfilis was a lone alien invader who arrived in the New World, attempting to destroy the native wildlife of the planet before being captured by researchers. 30 years later, due to a lab accident, Elfilis was split into Fecto Forgo, his evil part, and Elfilin, his good part. The latter fled the lab while the former stayed dormant. After the people of the New World had left their planet, forgo still stayed in the capsule. During this time, he managed to brainwash Leon, the benevolent animal leader into forming the militant Beast Pack to capture Elfilin, and restore full power by re-merging.

When an interdimensional portal that Forgo could not control brought Kirby, Waddle Dees and their king Dedede, Forgo took advantage of the situation. Forgo brainwashed Dedede and used the Beast Pack to capture and enslave at least 300 Waddle Dees to act as his energy source (by spinning hamster wheels). Forgo used the brainwashed Dedede to capture Elfilin and bring him to the lab where he was left.

When Kirby arrived at the lab and rescued Dedede, Forgo initially used Leon to try to eliminate Kirby, threatening to "feast on his hide" through the possessed animal monarch. When Leon was defeated, Forgo cancelled his careful planning, declaring his goal to consume the New World, including the Beast Pack. Forgo eventually re-merges with Elfilin to become Fecto Elfilis. When Kirby manages to split Elfilin back during the final battle, the decaying body of Forgo opened a dimensional rift between Kirby's home planet Popstar and New World, intending to crash both planets together out of spite.

When Forgo's body was destroyed before he could crash both planets, in the post-endgame his soul retreated to a pocket dimension made out of his own dreams and split Leon's soul into 300 parts, intending to create phantom beasts to continue his invasion of the New World. When Kirby restores Leon's soul Back, Forgo assumes direct control over Leon's body. When Kirby knocks Forgo out of Leon's body, he attempts to fight Kirby again before being interrupted by Morpho Knight (a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere).

Forgo comes back the last time with a new body called Chaos Elfilis he gained from absorbing Morpho Knight's power during the final Boss Rush, intending to take revenge on Kirby.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

While Forgo was experimented on and humiliatingly displayed by the New World researchers for a long time, his desire for conquest and consuming the New World wildlife began before he was captured. In the original form, he had a good part inside him, but he willingly ignored it, embracing vileness despite having a moral compass and full agency, showing full agency in both forms.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

While other omnicidal maniacs, such as Star Dream, Void and Hyness have existed in Kirby universe, they lacked agency either due to being more of a force of nature or being mentally ill in Hyness' case. Elfilis is the only omnicidal maniac who does it all willingly out of enjoyment and not due to built-in nature or insanity.

Final Verdict?

A hard [tup].

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#316184: Jun 24th 2022 at 2:52:35 AM

Fecto's been downvoted several times over agency concerns.

CrystallicWolf108 The Controversial Guy Since: Sep, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
The Controversial Guy
#316185: Jun 24th 2022 at 3:48:51 AM

HARD [tdown] to Ernesto De La Cruz. He’s far too standard, and also, he does talk about missing his town and family, and sure, that may have been a lie, but did Ernesto really have a reason to lie about that?

SailorVenus372 Since: Nov, 2019 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#316186: Jun 24th 2022 at 3:56:53 AM

[tdown] to Cruz

[tdown] for Fecto for agency concerns. Trust me, I’d love for him to count. He’s a massive asshole and is very horrible, but agency concerns.

Edited by SailorVenus372 on Jun 24th 2022 at 4:12:53 AM

Get Snuck-Up On.”
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#316187: Jun 24th 2022 at 5:17:30 AM

So what luck that both my discussion dates for First Kill and The Quarry end up on the same day ? However, I got nothing to bring to the table.

Even so, I feel it wouldn't hurt to give a rundown and description of both works, if anyone is interested in checking them out anyways. First up is The Quarry, a pseudo sequel to one of my favorite horror games, Until Dawn.

Like it's predecessor, The Quarry is an "interactive movie" style game, and a homage to the slasher genre with supernatural monsters thrown in. After surviving a night against the wendigo at a winter lodge, now the player is up against a pack of werewolves in a summer camp. With an all star cast - including several horror veterans as the Hackett family - this multiple choice game challenges the player to keep how many they can alive, while uncovering the mystery of Hackett's Quarry.

Anyways no one counts in this game either. The campers initially find themselves against the Hackett family, a prominent family in the county, with one of their sons, Chris, being the operator of the summer camp, and Travis, the local Sheriff. Initially, their father Jedediah and brother Bobby appear as two hunters menacing the campers, but it turns out they are hunting the werewolf that cursed their family; Travis uses his position as Sheriff to try to cover up the werewolves, and keep those infected locked up and isolated. Initially, the Hackett's are trying to protect the campers, and will only try to kill the protagonists when Chris' daughter, Kaylee is killed in werewolf form. Bottom line, they are all Well Intentioned Extremists who all care about each other (Though Travis falls into Unintentionally Unsympathetic territory, but that's neither here nor there).

The game's other antagonists are Eliza Vorez, and her son Silas. No questions asked, she loves her son. A Romani fortune teller, and leader of the Harum Scarum freakshow, who her son Silas was a part of as "The Wolf Boy". When Chris' children, Caleb and Kaylee thought Silas was being abused, they try to free him and set a fire as a distraction, which results in the deaths of several people, including Eliza. Now her spirit haunts Hackett's Quarry, becoming an Urban Legend of "The Hag of Hackett's Quarry", who haunts the woods looking for her son. As a spirit, she can do little to nothing to directly affect the plot, but as the game's "Horror Host", she can push the player into making choices that will protect Silas, and take revenge on the Hackett family. Bottom line, Eliza is probably someone I could sell as an MB, but I haven't covered all the routes yet. If the player kills Silas at the end of the game, she will directly threaten to haunt the player for the rest of their lives.

As for Silas, while he's the games technical Big Bad and True Final Boss, he's nowhere near the trope. He's the Monster Progenitor of Hackett's Quarry's werewolves, and the one being hunted by the family; in this game, killing a werewolf under the full moon breaks the curse of those who bit, and when Silas was freed, he bites Caleb, who in turn bites his sister and father. The only times we see Silas in the flesh is when he's in his rampaging werewolf mode, and his backstory as being a sideshow freak for his mother lends him some sympathy, with one of the protagonists showing some pity for him when he's cornered and about to be put down.

I'll do a rundown on First Kill later. I don't want this post to be longer than it needs to be.

Edited by Beast on Jun 24th 2022 at 5:17:47 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
monotrematum Since: Nov, 2021
#316188: Jun 24th 2022 at 5:41:23 AM

[tdown] Cruz, Fecto and Zeenomorph

I take it the Young Justice discussion has not began?

Edited by monotrematum on Jun 24th 2022 at 5:41:51 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
UsagiSan Mika Misono Since: Jan, 2022 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Mika Misono
#316190: Jun 24th 2022 at 6:40:16 AM

[tdown]Cruz.

Mika Mika Mika Mika
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#316191: Jun 24th 2022 at 7:06:43 AM

As for First Kill

A new Lesbian Vampire dramedy series on Netflix, First Kill tells the story of teenage Juliette and Calliope. One is a vampire, the others a hunter. The series takes place in The Unmasqued World; the existence of monsters is public knowledge, but considered a thing of the past. However, in the town of Savannah, lives the Fairmont, a powerful family who happen to be "Legacy" vampires; direct descendants of Lilith, and can be described as vampire high society. Moving into Savannah, are the Burns family, a clan of monster hunters. The Fairmont's youngest daughter, Juliette, is a vampire who never killed a human; the Burns' daughter, Calliope, never killed a monster despite hoping to do so. When the two try to kill each other at a party, they end up forming a romantic bond, and a psychic one, to the disapproval of their families.

The show isn't shy about the Romeo and Juliet analogy. Anyways, for the rundown of antagonists, I can see the show having one, but for now everything's wait and see.

  • On the Hunters side of things, no one counts. There is a Hate Sink in Clayton Cook, but he does nothing but antagonize Calliope for her relationship with Juliette, and trying to manhandle her like a creep. And while the hunters do attempt to kill Jules' family and the other Legacy Vampires, Clayton has no role in the massacre (even if he did, he'd just be another soldier) with his job being to keep an eye on Calliope. He ends up being Juliette's actual first kill.
  • As with the above, no one in the Burns family counts. They all clearly love each other, and are pretty nuanced for a family that could easily fall into Van Helsing Hate Crimes. Although the father, Jack Burns, is quick to dehumanize and try to kill his son, Thesus/Theo when he's turned into a vampire. And no, this doesn't disqualify anything, as Jack is aggrieved that Theo is "dead", agonizing about what his son has become, while staying true to his beliefs. If anything, Jack (and a lot of the other hunters) comes off as a victim of the hunters indoctrination. 
  • On the vampire's side of things, no one counts, yet. There's a whole storyline going on with Legacy vampires and their politics, with Juliette's grandmother, Davina Atewood, being charged with protecting the Serpent of Eden. Davina is the only antagonist, besides Clayton with no mitigating qualities, only caring about her family's status and reputation. However, she's insufficiently heinous; while she, her family and people kill a helluva lot of hunters part way through the season, these hunters tried to kill them first, so I can't hold that against her. She also ends up being the Disc-One Final Boss, being unceremoniously killed by her son-in-law, when she tries to force an arranged marriage on her granddaughter.
  • Which leads us to Elinor Fairmont, Juliette's older sister. She's easily the most heinous of the show's antagonists, being an unrepentant serial killer who kills multiple innocent people because she can, and collects their ID cards as trophies. She was also a manipulative sociopath as a child; tricking her twin brother into killing recklessly (as well as killing his pet turtle), before throwing him under the bus, and get him sent away by their parents; while she acts like a loving (if corruptive) big sister to Juliette, in the finale, the two disown each other, so she cast off one redeeming quality so far...but she still loves her parents; earlier in the season, she was genuinely concerned with her mortally wounded father, and agreed to an arranged marriage to save his life. I can see things changing and her becoming a CM down the line, but for now she's a wait and see.
  • And finally, Elinor's twin brother Oliver, who I don't see counting. He's currently a Hidden Agenda Villain, leading the monster invasion of Savannah for a murky end game, but he cares about his family and girlfriend, still misses his pet turtle, and has a genuine Pet the Dog moment in taking in a vampirized Theo, at the behest of the latter's stepmother.

Edited by Beast on Jun 24th 2022 at 7:08:00 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#316193: Jun 24th 2022 at 8:47:25 AM

[tdown]Fecto.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#316194: Jun 24th 2022 at 11:23:20 AM

I have a new quote to propose.

"Think fast, think faster! You are in a particularly unfriendly neighborhood, Spider Man! (laughs) Although I will admit you have an annoying tendency to, well, survive, the Green Goblin has every contingency in place to test the outer limits of that talent! Until all that remains IS A RED AND BLUE STAIN ON THE PAVEMENT!"

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 24th 2022 at 11:28:33 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#316195: Jun 24th 2022 at 11:41:14 AM

[up]IMO I think that would work better as an MB quote for him since he's a crossover

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#316196: Jun 24th 2022 at 11:52:39 AM

No to Fecto, double checking on a Black Mirror villain later.

[up] Agreed, sounds more MB.

Edited by 43110 on Jun 24th 2022 at 2:53:07 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#316197: Jun 24th 2022 at 11:55:28 AM

That might actually be true, I will propose it their instead.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#316198: Jun 24th 2022 at 1:52:27 PM

Pending items, minus CGW:

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#316199: Jun 24th 2022 at 1:53:40 PM

I'll get Uwe up tomorrow. Waiting on MGD whose busy with stuff.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MrInk99 Fernando David Páez Contreras from Mérida, Venezuela Since: Jul, 2021
Fernando David Páez Contreras
#316200: Jun 24th 2022 at 5:25:39 PM

Why exactly is agency a problem?


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