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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#314151: Jun 4th 2022 at 10:32:07 PM

Aaaand it turns out Miles Warren doesn't qualify since his insanity is ostensibly due to his first genetic experiment, the Man-Jackel, killing his first wife — who Gwen Stacy reminds him of, hence the deranged Entitled to Have You obsession — and daughter.

Darn... although apparently it's hinted that parts of this story could've been falsified, or at least that there's more to it than the High Evolutionary — and thus the audience — is aware of.

Edited by Arawn999 on Jun 4th 2022 at 11:00:07 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#314152: Jun 4th 2022 at 10:53:09 PM

[tup] Frage and Hiroto; like grandson, like grandfather.

It's Spooky Month!
JG98 Since: Feb, 2014
#314153: Jun 4th 2022 at 11:29:44 PM

@SailorVenus372

"On Lin. Yes, she’s bad. But her revealed Freudian Excuse past would’ve certainly fucked her up bad (look what Connal alone did to Saphira’s Mental State) even if it doesn’t justify what she did."

- My problem with that is, that it seems to me that the writing just wants me to just... forgive and forget what Lin did just because she had a bad past, albeit yes, it's an admittedly horrible one. My objection to this is, the sadism that Lin displayed, along with the disproportionate nature of her actions and her total lack of remorse (plus, my feeling that her Freudian Excuse was tacked on at the last possible moment in a cheap attempt to turn her into a Tragic Villain) make this attempt at sympathy null and void.

"Sirius...he might count, but he also might not reach the heinousness standard compared to Lin and Connal, or even Solaris who can’t count because he has loved ones, as twisted his care may be. I’m fine with doing an EP of Sirius if nobody objects."

Sirius commits at least three Moral Event Horizon worthy actions: - Poisoning Heather's mother to death on her sickbed, after she had just given birth. - Feeding Eclipse's soul to his Chandelure. - Murdering the Belrose sisters' parents.

He shows zero remorse for any of this, and his motivation boils down to "if my side wins, we get to decide what justice is." So... yeah, I think he's at least worth a look.

"And Ace might be Magnificent Bastard worthy."

On that, I couldn't agree more. ^^

Edited by JG98 on Jun 4th 2022 at 11:30:06 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#314154: Jun 4th 2022 at 11:43:28 PM

[tup] Kyurem, Eltoreq, Frage and Oroku Hiroto.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#314155: Jun 5th 2022 at 12:01:06 AM

[tup] for Doc, Sotsky, Myrthalen, Kyruem, Eltoreq, Frage, and Oroku Hiroto.

SailorVenus372 Since: Nov, 2019 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#314156: Jun 5th 2022 at 12:59:34 AM

Alright. Well without further ado.

Pokémon Reborn is a Pokemon Fan Game that is exceedingly difficult and Darker and Edgier, and even spawned games similar to them in Rejuvenation and Desolation, who, while unfinished, may have candidates that could be worth discussing if they are ever completed.

Lin was cut, but there’s one other villain from Reborn I’d like to share with you.

Who is Sirius? What has he done?

Sirius, birth name Paul Clark, is a megalomaniacal, sadistic and cruel, if not the cruelest admin of Team Meteor. He fully believes in the Written by the Winners mindset.

Before the events of the story, and it’s not Offstage Villainy as characters are shown to be visibly affected by these acts even in the present, Sirius poisoned Elena Molinar’s IV tube when she gave birth, killing her. Distraught, Corey took out one of his eyes with a syringe, and Sirius blackmailed him into doing what he said by threatening his newborn daughter Heather’s life. He also burned down the Belrose Household using his Chandelure for the Sapphire Bracelets, one of the game’s four Macguffins, killing the parents of Laura, Charlotte and Saphira Belrose. Charlotte believed herself to be the one who caused her parents’ death as she was playing with her Vulpix when it happened. Thanks to Sirius, the three were orphaned and taken into the resident Orphanage of Fear by Knight Templar Dr. Sigmund Connal.

Come the events of the story, Sirius, now a high ranking Meteor admin, is first encountered in Mosswater Factory. Here, he doesn’t really do much other than team up with fellow agent Ace to fight two gym leaders: And they pretty much win. However, by the time they do, their Pokemon are weakened and the MC and Fern have beaten Aster and Eclipse. Knowing that they cannot take on four trainers at once, he has Ace detonate a Smoke Bomb so that they can escape.

Sirius next appears after the MC, Cain and Shelly rescue the children kept under Connal’s care from him, where he proposes a Villain Team-Up, claiming to be a fan of his ECT methods (which is complete BS. Pure Pragmatic Villainy to gain another ally against you.) and he accepts his request. After your gym battle with Shade, he appears in the railnet and, right out of the fucking blue, has members of Team Meteor capture the escaped children and Shelly, with Cain being the only one who managed to get away. When you eventually come to rescue him, if you battle him or Connal, he will always trash talk the doctor and try to take Anna hostage. Cain trades him the Emerald Brooch, one of the game’s Mac Guffins...only for Sirius to realize after they and his conrades left that it wasn’t the true one AND it was an explosive made by someone. He barely managed to escape.

Next appearing at Belrose Manor, he’ll either fight you or not depending on the choices made beforehand. His in battle dialogue flat out states that he’s trying to murder you, and he always gives the player a Sadistic Choice after. One of these ends with him subduing Saphira with his Seviper, abducting her and taking her to the Tanzan Meteor Base. The MC follows him in there and defeats a giant steelix as well as PULSE Abra, only for Sirius and the now-present Lin to arrive. Sirius then grabs the main character and explains to Lin that they terminated her PULSE project, but before they can inquire more, Saphira and the Giant Steelix assault the base, giving you time to escape with Sirius only letting you go to save his own skin and that his Pokemon were worn out.

Sirius wouldn’t appear again for a while until Route 3, where Eclipse pulls a Heel–Face Turn and begins explaining things about Team Meteor. Sirius’ response? Have his Chandelure destroy her soul before she can get anything meaningful out, Right in front of the MC and Eclipse, disregards her as trash and a traitor even after her death, and attempts to have Chandelure do the same to you. If Aya hadn’t pushed you out of the way and gotten taken hostage? He would’ve succeeded. In Calcenon City, he tries to bargain with her life for the Ruby Ring, but Charlotte takes it and claims she’s going to the LCCC with it to turn it over. In reality, she catches you halfway and gives it to you.

Next encountered at Fiore Mansion along with Fern, Solaris, Blake and a bunch of Meteor Grunts, he threatens to burn down the house at Solaris’ request, with Sirius letting out an Evil Laugh and musing that this wouldn’t be the first house he burned down for the bracelets. Titania, however, floods the room with water from Amaria’s Gym, foiling this attempt. He, along with the other Meteors present leave to involve Lin.

He will not be seen again until Agate City, where Solaris fights you. Afterwards, depending on the route, he’ll give a "Reason You Suck" Speech to Solaris or remark about how a soft bite runs in his family. This ends with Solaris or Taka having their eye ripped out by him after these events and left to rot in a building in Labradorra City that is guarded by two meteor grunts. Oh, and when Lin or the PULSE Mr. Mime kills Connal? He doesn’t show a shred of empathy for him, proving that he really was just a means to an end for Sirius.

In Victory Road, he goes against Lin’s warnings to not harm you due to wanting to fight you herself and outright has Blake and Fern try to kill you, while treating his hostage Aya terribly, threatening to cut out her tongue and even kill her. When you confront him, he gloats about what he did to Charlotte’s home and her parents to her face, and the MC and him fight. Afterwards, Saphira pushes him into the lava for what he did, killing him.

Is he Heinous by the Standards of the Story?

Tricky. He isn’t anywhere near Lin’s level, but that’s because she had the resources of Arceus AND Team Meteor, but he far surpasses Connal. He’s on the same level of Solaris really, who can’t count because he does have a form of genuine love for his son Taka even if he is abusive towards him.

And some of his actions caused some of the events of the game, and he’s proven to be more than willing to kill or maim anyone in his way.

Any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

No. The only thing I can think of is his alliance with Connal, but I’ve mentioned that he didn’t really care when he was killed.

Agency Issues?

Nope. Regular human.

Verdict?

I don’t know on this one. He’s a massive piece of shit either way.

Edited by SailorVenus372 on Jun 5th 2022 at 1:17:08 AM

Get Snuck-Up On.”
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#314157: Jun 5th 2022 at 2:18:07 AM

[tup]shredder /Hirohito, battle cats duo and Farage.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#314158: Jun 5th 2022 at 2:44:43 AM

Yes to Frage and Oroku Hiroto.

Abstain on Sirius.

JG98 Since: Feb, 2014
NonoRobot Since: Sep, 2010
#314160: Jun 5th 2022 at 4:53:37 AM

[Removal]

Anyhow, I guess leaning on [tup] for Sirius too.

Edited by NonoRobot on Jun 5th 2022 at 5:23:57 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#314161: Jun 5th 2022 at 5:13:25 AM

Table absolutely any Owl House discussion until the 11th, please.

NonoRobot Since: Sep, 2010
#314162: Jun 5th 2022 at 5:17:35 AM

[Removal]

Edited by NonoRobot on Jun 5th 2022 at 5:23:45 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#314163: Jun 5th 2022 at 5:19:41 AM

Even saying someone might be a possible candidate—if it's been less than two weeks—is frowned upon, and should probably be deleted before someone reports it (I won't, but others might not be so forgiving).

(Also, March of next year? Why so long?)

Edited by ACW on Jun 5th 2022 at 8:20:03 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#314164: Jun 5th 2022 at 5:19:52 AM

[tup] to Hiroto and Sirius

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
NonoRobot Since: Sep, 2010
#314165: Jun 5th 2022 at 5:23:16 AM

[up][up] I wasn't aware of that rule (which is, indeed, listed in the Administrivia section). I apologize and will edit my messages.

As for the delay for the last season: Disney essentially decided to end the show, so they have been wrapping up things quickly in season 2 and will release three big episodes for season 3. And as mentioned below: animation does take time, and considering the lenght of the future episodes (three 44 minutes specials), I guess we will get a quite detailed (and certainly awesome) finale.

Edited by NonoRobot on Jun 5th 2022 at 5:25:44 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#314166: Jun 5th 2022 at 5:23:25 AM

[up][up][up]Animation takes a long time to animate and uh the owl house has had issues with delays.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 5th 2022 at 5:23:40 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#314167: Jun 5th 2022 at 5:23:37 AM

Write-ups done.

  • Battlecats:
    • Myrthalen is a devout follower of the Lizard God who secretly manipulated all of the events in the series. Disgusted with the Ermand Dynasty and Valderia's way of living, Myrthalen decided to plunge the world into a perpetual state of Rorinclaw. After she unintentionally convinces King Ermand II to go into exile where he later turns into the Dire Beast, she drugs Valadar and watches as he murders Ryah and his Battlecats team. Manipulating Valadar into believing King Ermand III was responsible, Myrthalen assisted Valadar in amassing a colossal army of Umbra Raiders, where they lay siege upon various Greenspyre cities and killed anyone who resisted or didn't join them. After Valadar successfully kills King Ermand III, captures Fanghelm, and starts Rorinclaw by creating the Blood Moon, Myrthalen pushes Valadar to seek out and kill Queen Adastril and the Battlecats to complete his vengeance and conquer all of Valderia.
    • Eltoreq is one of Valadar's closest followers. Bitter over not becoming a Battlecat due to his spiteful attitude, Eltoreq instead chose to lead an army of Umbra Raiders. He led several attacks on his own country that got hundreds killed, even going as far as murdering his own parents just because he felt like it. After joining Valadar in his crusade, he assisted him in gathering more soldiers, attacking Greenspyre cities, attacking the arena in Fanghelm during Rorinhal, and helping Myrthalen's blood priests create the Blood Moon. Despite appearing to be one of Valadar's most trustworthy allies, he later reveals he's only helping Valadar because they both want Valderia subjected to Rorinclaw.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#314168: Jun 5th 2022 at 5:28:37 AM

Myrthalen's entire entry should be spoilered on the YMMV, I'm guessing?

What about Eltoreq?

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#314170: Jun 5th 2022 at 6:42:29 AM

Bellatrix Lestrange has her own page.

Oh, and speaking of Bellatrix, someone's been pushing the idea that Voldemort loves Bellatrix.

Pulled from the Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page.

  • Act of True Love: Voldemort takes a moment to pull Bellatrix to safety with him before fleeing the Ministry of Magic and by doing so risks his own safety and harms his movement and even loses the opportunity to have his archenemy Dumbledore captured.

And I also found this on Voldemort's page.

  • Even Evil Has Loved Ones: Bellatrix was the only living creature who mattered to him and he saw more than just a tool. Hers was the only existence he truly acknowledged.
    • He proved this when he did things for her that did not benefit him at all, and in one case even took its toll. He risked capture, made himself vulnerable to the enemy's attacks, and revealed himself to the Ministry, which allowed them to start working against him and thwart his plans for the sole purpose of saving Bellatrix from going back to Azkaban after the Battle of the Department of Mysteries. He broke the statue that was pinning her to the Ministry floor right in front of so many Ministry workers, grabbed her, and disapparated.
    • He didn't even need to do it. It wasn't because of her importance as a Death Eater or usefulness because she wasn't assigned mission till the rest of the captured Death Eaters were back. He could have freed her anyway with the others and if he had left without her, it would have been much to his benefit. He lost much more than he gained by it and it was the only selfless, even sacrificial, thing he ever did in the books.
    • His reaction to her death, which was far more intense than even his reaction to Nagini's death and Nagini was his last Horcrux, was purely for her. He screamed, sent the best three duellists there, Minerva, Kingsley, and Slughorn, hurtling through the air as though they were nothing, and tried to kill Molly.
    • He was in the middle of his own duel when he did that, and it wasn't because of her usefulness because Nagini was more useful technically, and her usefulness died with her so avenging her would have done no good. The books state that he did not kill unless he deemed it necessary and the fact that he saw it necessary to avenge Bella but not Nagini, despite being obsessed with immortality, says a great deal. He knew killing Neville wouldn't have brought his soul back, it was gone, but he also knew killing Molly wouldn't have brought Bella back, she was gone so no longer useful, yet he did it even though he would have accomplished nothing by it. He did it for her.

Edited by k410ren on Jun 5th 2022 at 9:46:01 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
NonoRobot Since: Sep, 2010
#314171: Jun 5th 2022 at 6:55:40 AM

Huh... That's... a take. Very recent addition to Voldemort's page too (added today). Same poster added the Act of True Love example to the Order of the Phoenix page.

I didn't see the films and read the books in a while. I would be inclined to say that the troper who posted that is reaching a little, but I'm afraid it would be my bias talking.

Wanting to save a powerful tool is one thing. Loving it is another. I don't recall Voldemort ever showing the slightest hint of affection or kindness towards her. She is not used to humanize him either.

I'm tempted to call those examples a Square Peg Round Trope case, but once again I'm biased and don't recall the books/films that well.

Edited by NonoRobot on Jun 5th 2022 at 7:01:09 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#314172: Jun 5th 2022 at 7:02:58 AM

Yes to Hiroto and Sirius.

[up][up]Wait what ever you do do link that page in her entry it's not big enough to stay.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 5th 2022 at 9:03:51 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#314173: Jun 5th 2022 at 7:15:09 AM

@ACW: Oh definitely. Eltoreq doesn't need to be spoilered-out though.

Not sure on Paul "Sirius" Clark.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#314174: Jun 5th 2022 at 7:15:37 AM

I guess those were added when apparently Voldemort & Bellatrix had a kid together

[tup]Tentative to Sirius

Edited by nwotyzal on Jun 5th 2022 at 7:18:37 AM

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#314175: Jun 5th 2022 at 7:28:10 AM

[up][up][up] Do or don't? I have no intention of linking unless ACW says so. That Even Evil Has Loved Ones entry in my recent post appears to be from this morning.

Edited by k410ren on Jun 5th 2022 at 10:29:28 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills

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