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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#311976: May 13th 2022 at 11:32:58 AM

[tup] to Grigori, then. As someone who doesn't watch procedurals, I think I assume the genre heinous standard is higher than it actually is

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#311977: May 13th 2022 at 11:44:43 AM

  • Adventure Comics Vol. 1 issue #123's "The Man Behind The Mask" & issue #126's "The Master Arrow": The Mask is a mysterious assassin who specializes in making his kills look like suicides or accidents. In the span of just three days, the Mask has killed sixteen people through such methods, including by throwing them off of buildings and electrocuting them in their bathrooms.
  • Destinies of Remnant:
    • Everyone else
    • The Black Knight: The High Priest of the Witch Hunters, truthfully Cardin Winchester, is a power-hungry maniac who takes advantage of Cinder's invasion to take over Vale for himself. Leading his forces across the kingdom, the High Priest kills anyone in his way and forcibly conscripts the rest into his loyal soldiers, personally slaying 150 people himself. Throwing away the lives of his soldiers when Jaune Arc attacks, the High Priest then takes his 200 recent conscripts hostage, saying that he'll execute them all if Jaune doesn't face him while planning to execute them all anyway just to Make an Example of Them; he even takes the time to strangle one of his hostages to death just because she happened to resemble Pyrrha Nikos.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#311978: May 13th 2022 at 12:05:46 PM

[tup] to the Caretaker and Grigoriy Zubkov.

Cut Albert Tesla.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#311980: May 13th 2022 at 12:10:03 PM

Okay, issue for RWBY fanfic: One of the fics was removed from AO 3. It was reposted here, but "without the consent of the author". Should the entry be deleted?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#311981: May 13th 2022 at 12:28:25 PM

Anything reposted without the consent of the author is an instant "cut" IMO. In cases like these I think the wishes of the original creator should be respected over our hard-on for archiving absolutely everything; we've had talks about this in the past and consensus very firmly agreed with me.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#311983: May 13th 2022 at 12:30:40 PM

Fully with Scraggle here, that's an instant "no" for me.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#311984: May 13th 2022 at 12:32:07 PM

Here's the entry, FWIW:

  • A Rose Burnt To Cinders, by TelvariaMalexia: After the Fall of Beacon, Salem has successfully brought about the fall of humanity. She prides her self in killing all the remaining huntsman who come to fight her and crushing humanity's hope. She kills both Ozpin and Glynda as Glynda was trying to save him, keeping the former's skull as a trophy and taking pride in mocking the latter's Senseless Sacrifice. She allows Cinder the power to possess Ruby into being her obedient slave and is even proud of her for it. But the thing she cares for most is destruction and death. She thinks Cinder is still soft for not appreciating the thrill of the kill while instead having a pointless attachment to Ruby. To show her weakness, she takes advantage of Emerald's jealousy of Ruby and has her attempt to kill her. When Cinder kills Emerald in retaliation and revives Ruby, Salem considers her to be an imperfection that must be purged. When the time comes and Cinder comes to rebel against her with Weiss and Ruby, she orders Raven to kill them. When she fails and is fatally injured, Salem simply picks Raven up and shatters every bone in her body, killing her almost instantly while throwing her aside and thinking of her as "worthless". She then takes away the possession to make Ruby hate Cinder for torturing her. And as a final kick to the teeth to Cinder, she tells her that while she may want validation, the only way she can truly get it is by forcing them to respect her.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#311985: May 13th 2022 at 12:34:09 PM

Like I may have said before, if someone went to the effort of digging up a work I deliberately nuked, I would feel violated and possibly betrayed. We owe the original author the same courtesy. Cut.

Yes to Grigori.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 13th 2022 at 3:36:39 PM

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#311987: May 13th 2022 at 1:42:09 PM

With that in mind, I’m wondering should we delete The Lion King Adventures, cause the original link is gone and they were reposted under Internet Archive.

And yes, cut Fanfic!Salem

Edited by nwotyzal on May 13th 2022 at 1:43:03 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#311988: May 13th 2022 at 1:46:43 PM

Hmm, that could be an issue.

I know The Fic May Be Yours, but the Trope Page Is Ours is a thing, but if the fic is deleted, that's different.

AutumnLeaves Since: Mar, 2014
#311989: May 13th 2022 at 1:48:37 PM

Okay, so I've got another candidate from a completely different medium and setting than my previous one:

Prince Vladimir Galitsky, Prince Igor.

(The sheer fact that I am suggesting him in this thread shows just how bad he is: he used to be sung by my - now sadly deceased - favorite opera singer, whose characters' actions, thanks to his amazing charisma, I've always justified as much as I can!)

What Is the Work?

Prince Igor is a 1890 opera by Alexander Borodin, based on a medieval Song of Igor's Campaign. It centres on Prince Igor of Novgorod-Seversky's unsuccessful campaign against the Cumans, his sojourn in captivity (where his son falls in love with the Cuman khan's daughter), and subsequent escape. Meanwhile, Prince Vladimir Galitsky, Igor's brother-in-law left to watch over the town while Igor's away, has started terrorizing the town instead.

The author sadly died before finishing it, therefore it had to be finished on an Ambiguous Ending note by his colleagues.

Who is Prince Galitsky and What Has He Done?

Vladimir Galitsky is the brother of Igor's wife Yaroslavna. When Igor leaves to fight, he entrusts Galitsky with the safety of Yaroslavna and the entire town of Putivl. Galitsky encourages Igor to leave despite the appearance of an ill omen (a solar eclipse).

However, after Igor leaves, Galitsky starts a regime of tyranny and debauchery and surrounds himself with drunkards and criminals. He kidnaps and rapes a girl, rudely laughing at her friends who come to plead for her, and sings that he would like to stay in power for good, so that he would be able to make merry all day long, punish whomever he wants, rape all the girls he wants, and deplete the royal treasury.

When the kidnapped girl's friends come to Yaroslavna, imploring her to talk some sense into her brother, they reveal Galitsky has been tormenting the populace for a long time and has simply stopped hiding his true colors after Prince Igor left. They add that he and his cronies are worse than the Cumans (who, for context, have repeatedly raided the town and taken many prisoners)/

Yaroslavna tries to pacify her brother, but he mocks her and gloats that he's able to seize the power in Putivl whenever he wants. His mocking also has some Incest Subtext undertones, since he says she is beautiful and young and must be lonely without Igor, and scolds her for being so cold with him while she's probably taken another man as her lover (which isn't true). As for the kidnapped girl, he says that all right, he'll let her go... and kidnap and rape some other girl instead.

His eventual fate is left unclear, due to Borodin's untimely death.

Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse

None that we know.

Heinousness Standard

I think he meets it. He has no love for his sister, and his brother-in-law and nephew can perish in the Cuman steppes for all he cares. He doesn't care about ruling Putivl, planning to terrorize its residents and openly claiming he wants to deplete its treasury. The only reason he is on his best behavior when Igor's around is that he's afraid of Igor, which shows he even lacks Villainous Valor.

Compare that to the opera's other villain Khan Konchak: a charismatic, courageous Father to His Men, loving parent to his daughter and Affably Evil Friendly Enemy to Igor.

Final Verdict

He fits the trope.

Edited by AutumnLeaves on May 13th 2022 at 11:51:13 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#311990: May 13th 2022 at 1:53:21 PM

Personally, I think it's a bit presumptuous to make assumptions about how the creator would feel about us linking to web media that's no longer available in its original form. If they don't like it, they're more than welcome to come talk to us, but is it really less insulting to assume we're acting on their behalf?

[tup] to Vladimir

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on May 13th 2022 at 1:53:49 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#311991: May 13th 2022 at 1:56:37 PM

Imp? No. They deleted it for a reason. We’ve told you to curb this behavior of yours.

Yes to the above

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#311992: May 13th 2022 at 1:58:00 PM

How much is it implied the one rape isn't his only one? Because otherwise he may not be hitting baseline.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#311993: May 13th 2022 at 1:58:49 PM

Actually okay, is there a body count to town raiding?

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#311994: May 13th 2022 at 2:00:17 PM

There is one possible factor I do have to bring up, sometimes fanfics are taken down by the website that is hosting them rather than the author itself.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#311995: May 13th 2022 at 2:00:45 PM

[up][up][up][up] Alright then, if you insist. Should we add The Lion King Adventures to the cutlist?

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on May 13th 2022 at 2:01:00 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#311996: May 13th 2022 at 2:01:05 PM

Thing is Ordeaux, even if true, the fact that it wasn't re-uploaded is problematic.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#311997: May 13th 2022 at 2:04:49 PM

Yeah if it wasn't repuloded that would still be a problem but if it was and was originally taken down by the site, that gets a bit tricker.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#311998: May 13th 2022 at 2:09:06 PM

In light of the above concerns, I'm switching to abstain on Vladimir pending further discussion.

A broader discussion on taken down web media seems a little overdue, I think. If we can't list stuff from removed/inaccessible material on Complete Monster, even if it was archived or otherwise preserved, should we also cut pages for things that are no longer available in their original format?

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#311999: May 13th 2022 at 2:09:58 PM

Accidental post.

As for stuff no longer accessible in its original form, I think it depends on if it was published with the writer's permission.

When it comes to other works where you have to Keep Circulating the Tapes, I think as long as it was properly published in the first place, we can have a page.

Abstain on Galinsky.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 13th 2022 at 5:15:18 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#312000: May 13th 2022 at 2:14:03 PM

That's a discussion for somewhere that's not here, Imp. If you're that pressed on the issue, open a thread.

I'm abstaining officially on Galinsky for now, but strongly leaning yes given the context of the EP implies to me not only is he openly yearning for the "mass rape" angle, the ending is giving him free rein to capitalize on it. I'm not sure if that hits our boundaries of "onscreen," but regardless that's sickening.

Edited by Scraggle on May 13th 2022 at 3:15:06 AM


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