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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#310752: Apr 27th 2022 at 3:57:14 PM

[up] Polish police show. It's called "W11- Wydzial Sledzczy" which translates to "W11 - Department of Investigation". I E Ped few guy from that show already. Sorry for not mentioning the title.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#310753: Apr 27th 2022 at 3:57:18 PM

[tup] to Bizon. He kills his relatives, rapes his own sister, and tries to kill a 16-year-old boy by setting him on fire and also rapes a 16-year-old girl before trying to kill her. I don't know what the heinous standard is but he should be fine.

Edited by WatTambor on Apr 27th 2022 at 1:59:10 PM

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#310754: Apr 27th 2022 at 3:58:12 PM

[up] With respect, I gave some examples in the EP. For clarity, other C Ms are two serial killers and one human trafficker.

Edited by emperors on Apr 27th 2022 at 6:58:37 AM

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
PlatinumOni Since: May, 2021
#310756: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:12:04 PM

Originally I believed he had some issues with being a Complete Monster, then After some lore digging, I Discovered that he is actually possible.

What’s the work?

TEKKEN Is an 3d fighting game franchise that was developed by Namco (The same guys who made Pacman) and the story is focused on the ‘King of Iron Fist tournament’ and the fights between the dystopian Japanese aristocrats: Mishima Clan.

This game, Tekken 3 (considered as not just the best game in tekken but one of the best fighting games of all time) focuses on the story of Jin Kazama, a Japanese Teenager who seeks his ambitious Grandfather Heihachi in order to fight Ogre.

What does he do?

Ogre is a mysterious entity that is worshiped as the god of fighting, which rumors say ogre is a weapon that has been planted on earth by aliens from outer space. Despite being a weapon, it understands the world and the people around it.

One day, Heihachi seeks an expedition to Ogre’s Temple in seek of power to control the world, however, Heihachi discovers that Ogre had wiped out his entire expedition and now walks the world freely, in search of strong fighters to become immortal, Ogre goes around the world attacking and Killing multiple people, Resulting in the death of an Mexican Wrestler KING, and putting an Korean Martial Artist Baek Doo San in a coma which lasted for 1 year.

He eventually heads to Yakushima, Japan, and meets Jun Kazama and her son Jin, Ogre Attacks two of them, and knocks Jin unconscious, and when Jin comes to, he discovers that his House is in Ruins and Jun is Missing.

He would eventually be lured by the King of iron fist tournament, where he has an Irish Assassin named Nina Williams Awakened from an Cryosleep, brainwashed to attack Jin Kazama.

During the end of the tournament, He approaches an American Martial Artist named Paul Phoenix, and is defeated, then he is seen by Jin Kazama, who makes him turn into a bigger threat and unleashes his True Form. However, Jin defeats True Ogre as well, and Ogre is vanquished from the world.

Freudian excuses / Mitigating Factors?

None, You might think that he has moral agency problems but he is stated in the lore that he is an Sentient being with his own moral agency.

Heinous Standards

Tekken already has Nasty villains from terrorists and demons who destroys the world for pleasure and power, but Ogre still manages that as he also committed genocide across the world and serves as multiple people’s PERSONAL archenemies in their lore, which includes Jin (for attacking his mother), The Current King (Who was under the care of the original King’s Orphanage, who is dead because of Ogre), Armor King (Who lost his friend), Baek (For putting him in a coma), Hwoarang (For putting Baek, his master, in a coma), Julia And Michelle (Being responsible for Michelle’s Abduction).

If this is not enough, then let me tell you that Ogre is the ONLY CANON VILLAIN who would Hurt a Child, which is Jin, which is already a unique crime in the franchise.

Final Verdict?

Easy Yes for this monster.

Edited by PlatinumOni on Apr 27th 2022 at 4:13:04 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#310758: Apr 27th 2022 at 5:10:25 PM

[tup] for Mirosław Bizoń. Him torturing/raping/killing members of his family seems to hit that quality niche there.

Ogre I'm not entirely sure on.

...Oh right. Forgive Me Father. Uhhhhh, no one counts. I don't think? The Big Bad ends up being (unsurprisingly) Cthulhu. And at the end of the game, you confront and kill him.

And theeeeeeeeennnnn it's revealed that during your conquest to vanquish the town of all the Lovecraftian mutants and other monstrocities, that none of it was seemingly real. Apparently you went crazy and massacred nearly everyone in the whole town—including your cousin—and the game ends with you strapped to a hospital bed, presumably on your way to an insane asylum.

It's speculated Cthulhu is the one who drove you insane, but considering the ending implies almost nothing was real, that's really not a whole lot to go on.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Apr 27th 2022 at 8:13:09 AM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#310760: Apr 27th 2022 at 5:37:40 PM

Does Ogre have personality though? If so I would give a tentative yes to Ogre but I wanna know first due to the fact it doesn't actually talk proper English (apparently his speech is in reverse) so I wonder what his whole deal is.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 27th 2022 at 9:19:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#310761: Apr 27th 2022 at 5:55:22 PM

[tup] Bizon

As for Ogre how clear is it that he has agency? You mention him being a living weapon.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#310762: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:01:11 PM

[tup]to Bizon

Echoing Power and Duck on Ogre

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
PlatinumOni Since: May, 2021
#310763: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:03:56 PM

[up][up] It is mentioned in the lore that 'although he seems like a wild beast, he is an sentient being' and 'It understands entire structures of all living and artificial beings, and absorbs them.'

[up][up][up] and he has personality as he shows himself as an sophisticated fighter and at the same time an savage monster.

Edited by PlatinumOni on Apr 27th 2022 at 6:08:32 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#310764: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:06:28 PM

[up] Like...Word of God lore, or is it confirmed in the game?

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#310765: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:07:11 PM

[up][up]My problem is that you can be sentient without having agency. Something non-sentient is just mindless, and plenty of things that are Made of Evil or programmed are still self-aware

Edited by Libraryseraph on Apr 27th 2022 at 9:07:19 AM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#310766: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:08:45 PM

I mean that doesn't seem to be an issue, we now operate under the idea that we assume agency unless otherwise proven and if this thing is said to be sentient and there is no other indication of agency issues it should be fine.

PlatinumOni Since: May, 2021
#310767: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:09:23 PM

[up][up][up] His personality is from the character profile, so... lore

Edited by PlatinumOni on Apr 27th 2022 at 6:09:47 AM

PlatinumOni Since: May, 2021
#310768: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:14:58 PM

Speaking about which it is from the game manual, so basically it's lore is 'part of the game'.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#310769: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:17:01 PM

I'm gonna give Ogre a [tup] as the agency stuff seems vague at best and we have approved villains with less personality.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#310770: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:18:30 PM

Aight official [tup] to Shrek- I mean Ogre since that's all cleared.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 27th 2022 at 9:18:53 AM

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#310771: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:25:38 PM

Are people confusing “sapient” with “sentient?”

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Apr 27th 2022 at 6:26:05 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#310772: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:29:01 PM

[up] I know about the diffrence I am just saying as long as this thing is confirmed to be sentient and there is no other reason to believe he has agency issues it should be fine.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#310773: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:29:18 PM

[up][up]Yup. Gonna abstain on Ogre, yes to Bizon though.

[up] Unless Tekkan is mixing them up, I think you mean 'sapient'.

Edited by 43110 on Apr 27th 2022 at 9:32:13 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#310774: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:34:05 PM

[up] It seems that the game itself says sentient, though honestly, that seems to be more the creators not knowing the difference rather than a true indicator of its thought process.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#310775: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:48:03 PM

Not really feeling the Ogre, but Yes to Bizon.

Outer Range isn't really catching me so gonna drop my res for that, up to whoever wants it to snag. Will however absolutely grab the James Wan Stinger adaptation I only just head was coming, fuck yes.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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