During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
About Harley Quinn, I haven't watched the film but I read somewhere that Harley has taken a photo of herself with the corpses as if they are her family and put staples on their mouths as if they are smiling. If she really shouts "Grandma" after she slices the head of the elderly corpse and says she was going to make her cookies, I am not really sure if she is sane enough to be a CM in addition to the family photo she has taken with the corpses.
However, I haven't watched the film, so I will wait for others who are more familliar with it.
Edited by WatTambor on Apr 27th 2022 at 6:43:51 PM
No to Sylade but based on my recollection I'd say keep Harley. As I recall she was a gleeful loon whose quips came across as mocking sadism rather than actual delusions, just a "playful" Psychopathic Womanchild.
Been more than two weeks certainly, so any keepers in Deep Water with Ben Affleck and Ana de Armas?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 27th 2022 at 8:54:40 AM
Upon further reflection and rewatching the short, I also think Harley is a keeper. She seems well aware of how horrible her actions are despite being insane.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Tbh, I'm slightly leaning keep on Harley. The fact that she's more concerned about her cookies than her grandma herself makes me question that supposed redeeming factor. It's no different from, say, Stu Macher whining about how he's gonna get grounded.
The fact that she understands well enough that she's just getting in her own delusions but doesn't care about it on a moral level gives me more reason to keep her, ngl.
That being said, here's another Big L candidate.
What's the work?
Devil’s Son (Live From Amsterdam), as it's name suggest, is a 1998 live freestyle by Big L using the instrumental of the Devil's Son song I previously brought up. That freestyle was later on added to L's 2003 compilation album Harlem's Finest - A Freestyle History.
That freestyle depicts a fictional version of L's childhood in grisly detail, to say the least.
Who's Big L? What has he done?
A child feared in his entire childhood who :
- Kills his babysitter.
- Electrocutes his mother in her bath by dropping a blowdryer in the water, mockingly saluting her as she brutally died.
- Poisoned his dad's toothpaste in an attempt to commit parricide.
- Picked up his infant little sister, "gave her a quick spank", and dropped her in the fish tank, leaving her to drown.
- Invited four people in his house, killed them, ate them.
- Cut off his cousin Brian's left hand, currently on a frying pan.
- Karma Houdini.
Any mitigating factors?
For a kid whose story is told through a small freestyle, L easily meets the HS, especially since he is the only villain. Targeting his own family For the Evulz makes him polevault through it.
He claims to have been born crazy, but it's too vague to be mitigating. The fact that he salutes his dying mom in a mocking manner also shows awareness of his deeds and how he enjoys them. He even compares himself to Henry Evans.
Aside from that, well, regarding substantial plot, the mitigating elements are similar to the original Devil's Son track (See here for detail). With that in mind, up to you guys if it's enough or not.
Verdict?
Can't say I've seen a CM from a freestyle coming. Again, it's up to you guys.
Preemptive writeup
- Big L's Devil’s Son (Live From Amsterdam): Big L portrays a sociopathic child who decides to slaughter his own family. Targeting his mother first, L drops a blowdryer in her bath, mockingly saluting her as she is fatally electrocuted. Poisoning his father's toothbrush next, L laters on drops his infant sister in a fish tank, leaving her to drown. Finally inviting 4 people before slaughtering them and eating their corpses, L shows that not even his cousin is safe from his depravity, with the latter's hand ending up cut off and cooked.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Slade
Keep Harley (she’s like the “stab stab” insane rather than the “there’s something genuinely wrong with her” insane
Lizzid people!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
L (again) Keep Harley.
Edited by AustinDR on Apr 27th 2022 at 9:49:58 AM
Professor Gigachad
Big L, again.
Tentative yes to this Big L.
I hate spoilers
to Slayde. Compared to other FE villains with similar resources, he's not evil enough. He certainly didn't commit an Obligatory War Crime Scene purely For the Evulz nor is he shown to be a Bad Boss to his men.
Edited by 227someguy on Apr 27th 2022 at 1:04:51 PM
Everyone look at my sandbox
The Dragon
Who's covering The Black Phone?
Lizzid people!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Anyone claim Harley Quinn (2019) season 3? I'll take it if nobody else has. I just got HBO MAX, and binged season 2 (I'd already seen season 1 when it was on Syfy).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
L
Slayde
Keep Harley
RIP Toriyama
Sure to both Ls, Keep that Harley
On the topic of HBO Max, seeing as it's just about done with its season, I'll go ahead and pencil myself in to discuss Tokyo Vice when the time comes.
- Spider Man novelization by Peter David: The Green Goblin, depicted as far more of his own entity than in the film, is a power hungry, self-proclaimed god who seeks to be a "wolf among sheep". Created inside Norman Osborn's mind by imperfect performance enhancers, the Goblin quickly goes about overtaking Norman at various times to commit all manner of atrocity in the name of empowering Norman and subsuming his personality with the Goblin's own. After murdering Norman's assistant Dr. Stromm and an entire bunker full of military personnel, the Goblin attacks a massive parade and endangers dozens of people as he vaporizes OsCorp's board of directors. Nearly killing Norman's son Harry in his schemes with little care, the Goblin later sets an occupied apartment building on fire when Spider-Man rejects his offer for a team-up, and the Goblin then goes about hospitalizing Spider-Man's aunt, kidnapping his close friend and love interest Mary Jane, and then trying to force the hero to make the Sadistic Choice between saving Mary Jane, or an entire cable car full of children.
- Batman: The Audio Adventures:
- The Joker is a "mass murderer and malignant psychopath" who has been plaguing Gotham for five years, and looks to make his biggest splash yet on Valentine's Day. A cruel sadist who once poisoned the children of a police sergeant, then tricked the man into ensuring his kids didn't get the antidote in time to save their lives, the Joker has killed hundreds, if not thousands of people throughout Gotham, his schemes always designed to achieve the highest bodycount possible. Mentally torturing dozens of people into his loyal slaves and coaxing a boy to poison his own parents in the present, Joker takes an entire bus of passengers hostage and maims several of them, then reveals his newest scheme is to flood Gotham with a "love potion" that will drive the millions of citizens insane with homicidal lust, and tests the potion by shoving a woman into it and driving her mad. Though utterly convinced he was "created" by a fall into chemicals, Joker is revealed by Batman to have always been a violent, murderous criminal who enjoyed hurting others, and all the chemicals did was give him a "novelty."
- Oswald Cobblepot, the Penguin, is a smug crime boss with a love for Disproportionate Retribution. Having ran crime throughout Gotham for a long while, throughout which he regularly assassinates those he dislikes, Penguin was responsible for the creation of fellow villain Two-Face when he had attorney Harvey Dent's face sprayed with acid as punishment for Harvey seeking to arrest Penguin. Further driving Harvey to madness by taunting him into firefights and nearly bombing a pier he owns to kill dozens of civilians, Penguin breaks Harvey into fully embracing Two-Face and becoming his ally. A petty bully underneath his veneer of affability, Penguin greatly enjoys threatening the loved ones of those who earn his ire. He holds Stoveplate Sullivan's daughter hostage and freezes her pet kitten alive; threatens to feed a senator's infant child to one of his birds; and promises to force one of his minions to choose which of his own family members will die if the minion fails at accomplishing a ridiculous task, despite Penguin knowing that it is impossible.
- Marvel Noir:
- Luke Cage Noir: Randall Banticoff is the apparent grieving widower of his wealthy wife Daisy, but in truth is a selfish scumbag who holds a prejudice against his own race. A light-skinned black man who has reinvented himself to pretend to be white so as to infiltrate the upper echelons of socialites, Banticoff seduced and married Daisy for her fortune, only to then viciously strangle her to death when she became pregnant, having the fetus carved out of her to ensure his true heritage is never discovered. Using Daisy's wealth to finance his own criminal enterprise that he runs via his musclemen Stryker and Tombstone, Banticoff oversees murder and prostitution on the regular, and—in his quest to frame Luke Cage for Daisy's slaying—lets his lover be tortured and mutilated and his young son be taken hostage. When caught, Banticoff shows no remorse for his crimes, instead sneering racial slurs at Cage and his entire race as he is killed, but not before striking a lethal blow on Cage himself.
- Iron Man Noir: Commander Baron Strucker is a devout Nazi and Mad Scientist behind the "Z.E.M.O." project, entailing the kidnapping, experimentation on and brainwashing of many innocent scientists to transform them into his sociopathic adherents. Having transformed Howard Stark into his latest "Zemo", Strucker uses him to hunt down the legendary Trident, in the process of which Strucker executes Tony Stark's close friend Virgil, tries to murder Captain Namor's entire crew, and has Pepper Potts kidnapped and tortured for fun. Intending to use the Trident and a brand new robot army to help the Nazis conquer the world, Strucker takes a twisted pleasure in tormenting Tony about Howard's fate, and promises to transform Tony into the latest "Zemo" while simultaneously extending his lifespan so he will suffer as Zemo all the longer.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 27th 2022 at 12:51:16 PM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
to Big L, and thinking about it, change to to the previous one as well. Keep Harley. to Slayde.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The Batman one is under the Podcast namespace, but is it a podcast or audio play?
EDIT: Looks like it is indeed a podcast.
Edited by ACW on Apr 27th 2022 at 3:58:39 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to the Chief Scientist, Mathias Karski, Lucifero/Satan, Dr. Harlan Melchor, Chaos, Ronald Hinks, the Darkseid rewrite, and the Brainiac rewrite. A more tentative one to both Big L's too. Keep Harley Quinn.
to Sir Jack Kleghorn, Prince John, and Slayde.
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Thoughts on Hamilton Hill from the Batman Telltale series? Last time I played the games he basically caused the events of the story by hiring Joe Chill to murder Thomas and Martha Wayne while framing it on Falcone, and episode two shows Hill sharing his view on wanting to basically murder the poor, but I am unsure if that counts as actual intent or hyperbole.
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Does he take steps to act on this?
The Moron
He is nowhere near the standard compared to Penguin, Arkham, Riddler, the Vale’s, or Villain Joker - hell, even Harvey outheinousses him
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 27th 2022 at 6:04:08 AM
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Considering it already shows he disdains the poor and tries keeping them in as much poverty as much as possible, and the fact the thing penguin gave him simply made him unable to lie, pretty much implies that he was willing to and possibly gonna go through with it. Other than that not really
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Messenger from another dimension.
The police show that I E Ped couple of candidates... I said I was sure they were all but I rewatched one episode about the guy I was wondering. Before, I was sure he didn't make it but after I thought a bit... he might make it. He has lowest bodycount of all the C Ms but considering his murders were most brutal... he might count.
Who is Mirosław Bizoń and what does he do?
In the backstory, Mirosław Bizoń murdered his own parents when he was only 14. He stabbed his mother 50 times and slit his father's throat. Bizoń and his little sister were given to their grandmother. Now grandmother called him devil, and he tied her to a bed and made her die of starvation. He also constantly rapes and brutalizes his younger sister who is like a shell of a human now. T Hat's how shocked she is. He also has a 16 year old boy, his girlfriend, and girlfriend's little brother (who is a child) kidpannped and he and his two friends plan to kill them all. They put the 16 year old in the car and set it on fire. After that Bizoń has the girlfriend kidnappend and rapes her as well as plans on brutally killing her with knives. Little brother thankfully escapes. Police arrive and arrest Bizoń and his goons and narrator reveals Bizoń got life imprisonment and his two goons 25 years in jail.
Heinous?
I think so. He has lowest bodycount compared to other guys I P Med (we has a serial killer of little girls and one of prostitutes) but considering the brutality of his murders, I say he is on a more personal level cruelty. And he is only 25 years old, so he has less resources.
We do have a man who pushed his 7 year old nephew from the balcony to death after seeing him cheating on his wife.
And we have a man who raped and killed one woman.
And a man who kidnapped a 13 year old boy for ransom and murdered him.
A man who kidnapped 4 year old girl for ransom and planned on killing her after ransom was paid (thankfully, she was saved). Huge Hate Sink that guy.
5 neo nazis who tortured Georgian girl and set her younger brother on fire.
A man who murdered his elderly neighbors because they had money.
He still has slightly higher bodycount compared to most other people (4 succeeded murders and 2 attempted). And his murders are probably most brutal too (starving too death, stabbing 50 times). Plus, what he did to his younger sister is basically Fate Worse than Death. He has lower bodycount from other C Ms but bigger than non-C Ms.
Verdict?
I will give Bizoń a slight yes.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
You should probably mention which show specifically this is, but from the sounds of it to Mirosław Bizoń. As you say its quality not quantity, and damn that's evil.
Edited by MGD107 on Apr 27th 2022 at 3:55:06 AM
Switching to no to Sylade.