During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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My one hangup, as mentioned, is that the Archangels aren't as evil in other games in the series, and can in fact join your party in I, III, and IV. In I they only join up if you become a Lawful Evil zealot like them, but they're recruitable on any route in III and IV.
I personally don't worry about that. III pretty much confirms the franchise is a multiversal setting, and there seem to be multiple versions of the same demons and angels in the franchise. Even within the same universe, things are crazy. Look at I and its version of Gabriel - Gabriel was male in that game, if I'm not mistaken. If we look at one game at a time, however, then Michael, Raphael, and Uriel can count in II.
I'm not sure about Eckhart. Some have criticized her for being a Generic Doomsday Villain.
After finishing the latest Michael Vey book, I have something to add to Dr. Hatch's list of offenses in the Literature page:
- In the fourth book, Tara's powers have developed to the point where she could create perfect illusions. Hatch uses this on Michael to disguise himself as Michael's deceased father, who claims to have been Faking the Dead. At first, Michael doesn't believe it until he gives him his watch, which he lost in the second book and used to belong to his father. Hatch easily tricks Michael into revealing the location of the resistance's hideout. This may seem like Michael grabbing the Idiot Ball, but he was unaware of Tara's new power and he had recently learned that had formed the resistance before he died. At the end of the book, we learn that Hatch ordered the Elgen to attack the hideout, possibly killing Michael and Taylor's mothers and Ostin's parents.
While we're on the subject of Michael Vey, another character from the same series should be added.
- Torstyn. His Establishing Character Moment in Rise of the Elgen had him using his powers to fry an aquarium full of exotic fish to death. When Hatch shows the Glows a guard getting devoured alive by the electric rats, they looked in disgust while Torstyn enjoyed every minute of it. In Hunt for Jade Dragon, we learn that he used his powers to kill monkeys in Peru, making the media think it was a plague. Later, he and the rest of the Glows were using their powers to mess with people. While Quentin, Kylee, and Tara were just pulling some (mostly) harmless pranks, Torstyn used his power on a local flirt until he begged for mercy. Once again, the other Glows thought he was going too far. Just to really twist the knife, he refused to call an ambulance when a passerby noticed the bad condition he put the flirt in, telling her that everybody dies someday. Despite not actually killing the guy, Torstyn still takes joy out of the possibility of giving him brain damage.
He is, really. Attempting to wipe out humanity, or magic, or whatever (it's been a bit since I've seen his scenes) is a pretty evil goal, but he does little to work towards it aside from ham around, send out Bryagh to do his work, and turn into a monster (and then get literally talked to death by Peter) so he fails any test concerning utter heinousness.
But, since this thread is about Complete Monsters, I digress. Bryagh has enough votes with no opposition, so I'll write him up momentarily. I'll have Razim's tomorrow, if no one else opposes them.
Soon, soon. As for Bryagh's writeup:
- The Flight of Dragons: Bryagh is the dark sorcerer Ommadon's literal dragon, and stands out as the only wholly evil dragon in the setting. Seven years prior to the plot, Sir Orrin Neville-Smythe came across Bryagh devouring an entire nest of dragon eggs, and was only stopped from slaughtering the last one by Orrin confronting him. Orrin grimly injures Bryagh, leaving the dragon to wallow in his own hate for seven years before returning to aid his dark master in his ultimate goal of destroying humanity. Throughout the plot, Bryagh is shown to be a vicious Sadist in the skin of a dragon, described as having blood on his mind and relishing the prospect of having his legions "attack, demolish, devour, burn, and grind" his enemies, happily serving Ommadon so long as he gets his kicks out of killing people. He's initially tasked with capturing Peter alive and bringing him to Ommadon; however, upon being pursued by Gorbash, Bryagh drops Peter to his intended death for little reason other than to spite the heroes. In the climax, Bryagh ambushes the Five-Man Band and proceeds to kill Giles and Aragh, and tops it off by killing the archer Danielle, who was Sir Orrin's love interest. Bryagh only pauses his assault to sadistically laugh about this in Orrin's face while he mourns, before both off themselves in a Mutual Kill.
edited 25th Sep '14 2:41:56 PM by Scraggle
Can probably replace Would Hurt a Child with Eats Babies (and pothole literal to Our Dragons Are Different).
edited 23rd Sep '14 9:03:27 AM by ACW
And...Nurse Ratched.
Nurse Ratched is the tyrannical nurse who runs the titular nursing home with an iron fist in the novel. Now, the book is told from the perspective on Chief, the mostly silent Native American patient who witnesses the arrival of Mcmurphy and Ratched's cruelty. In the novel, Ratched is far more into petty punishments when she can get away with them: shock therapy is given when she's challenged, or enemas, or solitary confinement. She's portrayed as ice-cold and callous and more interested in maintaining a hold on her seat of power. The lobotomy is the final step if someone doesn't step in line.
I can't remember her reaction to Billy Bibbit's death, but she does emotional torture him before it (knowing how mentally vulnerable he is). I can't remember how she reacts to his death, but I don't recall her being sorry in the book in anything beyond a "geez, what a mess" way.
Ratched is a largely a sadist trying to dominate anyone under her care. The argument of how it's 'the system'...honestly I don't agree as she's given full autonomy over the patients. She's not just the face of the system.
I don't see Film!Nurse Ratched as a pure sadist but rather as a simple cold blooded sociopath who likes demonstrating her power and doesn't care about the ramifications. If she makes someone commit suicide, Ratched would just write it off as another mental incident.
Also, like Voldemort, shouldn't she have her entry under the Film subpage?
Upon rewatching the scene for Ratched after Billy's suicide, I'll agree that she reacts too coldly to see it as a My God, What Have I Done? moment, but I still doubt that she reaches the heinous bar. Her crimes consist of causing Billy's suicide and lobotimizing McMurphy, while there have been countless villains who were cut before for only killing 1 or 2 people. The rest is cruel and petty torments of the patients, but not heinous enough by itself. If there's proof in either the film or the book that she makes a habit out of lobotimizing her patients or is responsible for more "accidents" in her ward I'd be happy to reconsider, but I'm still leaning nay.
Alright, since it seems like there's a consensus to keep Janos and cut the rest from the previous five candidates I listed, I'll cut and rewrite them in a few days if no one objects. I have one nomination and a nattery example that needs clean-up listed further below.
The nominee is two villains from the 1997 Spawn film, one of the worst superhero comic book films from the 90s-2000s boom, but the villains are heinous enough to give serious consideration. The plot in this continuity is a Superhero Origin story for Spawn, a mercenary who was killed by his boss Jason Wynn and made a deal with the devil Malebolgia to get revenge in exchange for leading his army.
There are four villains in the running. They all reach the heinous bar and none of them get any redeeming traits (except possibly Wynn, but I'll get to that later). Jason Wynn is the leader of a covert agency who wants to conquer the world, Jessica is his Psycho for Hire chief assassin, Clown is a demon from hell, and Malebolgia is his boss the devil.
Jason Wynn
- Gets 16 innocent bystanders killed in an assassination of a rebel/terrorist leader without telling Simmons.
- Kills Simmons by burning him alive.
- Tests a bioweapon on 8000 North Koreans, including children. Diseases (diphtheria, cholera, smallpox) spread to millions of people worldwide.
- Wants to conquer the world and kill whoever refuses with the bioweapon.
- Threatens to kill Cyan (a 4-year old kid) and Spawn's ex-fiance Wanda if his associate Terry tries to quit, later takes them hostage.
- Attaches the bombs to his heartrate as a fail-safe.
Jessica
- Kills Simmons by burning him alive.
- Test a bioweapon on 8000 North Koreans, which causes a pandemic.
- Agrees to launch world genocide in Wynn's name.
Clown
- Orders Al Simmons/Spawn killed.
- Orders Wynn to create a bioweapon.
- Wants to kill enough of Earth to use the souls of the dead to invade Heaven
- Trick Spawn into murdering Wynn to release the virus.
- Tries to kill Spawn's dog.
- Threatens to rape Wanda in front of Spawn.
- Kills a homeless man.
- Tries to kill Spawn, Cyan, Wynn, Terry, and Wanda for petty payback.
Malebolgia
- Wants to kill enough of Earth to use the souls of the dead to invade Heaven.
- Trick Spawn into murdering Wynn to release the virus.
I say cut Jessica and Malebolgia. They're both pure evil, but Jessica is outclassed in heinousness by her boss due to dying pretty early and Wynn getting more focus, Malebolgia is outclassed in heinousness by his minion due to his Orcus on His Throne status. That leaves Clown and Wynn as the two possible keeps, but Wynn might discount on redeeming traits in a scene that can be interpreted in several ways. After Spawn returns as a demonic general he kills Jessica in revenge for their murder of him. When her corpse is later removed by the coroner, Wynn seems to be upset by the loss of his Dragon. When Clown arrives he subsequently chews him out about getting Jessica killed by not warning him. If it's redeeming I don't know. One can interpret it as care, it can also be anger over losing a useful asset and Clown's Chaotic Evil antics.
Clown looks like a solid keep. It's just Wynn I'm not so sure about.
Sakura Gari
- Complete Monster - Dr. Katsuragi, the Saiki clan's doctor and one of Souma's lovers. Not only is he a disgusting pedophile and a Domestic Abuser, he drugs, rapes, and tortures Masataka (this includes whipping him, sticking a household object up his anus right after raping him, and holding his hand in boiling hot tea because of his jealousy over Masataka being the one Souma loves, when he loves Souma to an insane degree himself). Oh, and because Souma hated his stepmother Sakurako for raping him when he was younger, Katsuragi takes his words literally and forces a reluctant, young Souma to kill her. He took Souma's hand, which held a knife, and forcibly made him cut Sakurako's wrists, effectively killing her, while she was naked and passed out in the bathtub. And after the act, he also practically rapes Souma. Not only was Souma left traumatised by the deal, but this also contributed to Souma's "half-sister" Youya going from a simply adorable toddler into a scary Yandere and Creepy Child that calls himself "Sakurako", having walked into his mother's murder and gone mad from the horrifying sight. When Souma confronts Katsuragi on his rape and torture of Masataka, Katsuragi denies the accusation and tries to seduce Souma. He acts uninterested and mentions Masataka's name, so Katsuragi actually grabs Souma by the throat and tries to strangle him. Fortunately, though, Souma isn't fazed and deals him a huge Humiliation Conga. Which Asayo transforms into a Karmic Death.
- Also, Sakurako's mother aka the real Sakurako. Not only she poisoned Youya/Sakurako with her resentment over being an Unwanted Spouse and Sakurako/Youya being The Un-Favorite after Souma's arrival, but she's the first person who physically/emotionally/sexually abuses Souma, giving the aforementioned Katsuragi the "opener" he needed to do the crap he did to him...
- Interestingly, Souma is a subverted and deconstructed form of this trope. He initially seems like a Complete Monster, at least to Masataka (who calls him out on it with a What the Hell, Hero?), when he tells him that he's responsible for all the deaths surrounding him, saying he effectively drove all his former lovers to suicide, shows no remorse for it, and says that he seduces and sleeps with anyone because he wants it. The truth is a lot dirtier and uglier. And that's before we get to the torture.
- You can make a very strong case for Katou, too. he actively helped break his own child, Youya/Sakurako, into little pieces, turning the boy into a borderline Complete Monster in his own right by keeping up his lover's poisonous Mind Screw of him (see above) and enabled the abuse of Souma by keeping quiet of all the crap he knew the kid was going though in an attempt to have his own son take over a family he didn't really belong to via murder and other tactics — all while coming across as a Old Retainer, nothing more. (Contrast with Ohatsu, who also kept quiet about Souma's abuse but was wrecked with guilt afterwards and broke down crying when she explained it to Masataka.) Charming: and, unlike others, we get no hint of a Freudian Excuse for this... and he walks off into the sunset in full Karma Houdini-mode at the end.
Thread history shows that this example has come up a lot of times. The only one who was never discussed was Katou, but from what's listed I don't think he stacks up to the first guy. Keep Katsuragi and rewrite, cut the rest.
Amended that detail slightly. He wrote them off as collateral on Simmons's mission without telling him (and gets Simmons's immediate resignation for it), so the effect is still the same as killing them himself.
edited 23rd Sep '14 2:57:28 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Lobotomizing someone unnecessarily is pretty damn evil. Driving someone to suicide, while also evil, is fairly generic as villainy goes.
edited 23rd Sep '14 1:18:29 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
