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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#308176: Apr 4th 2022 at 6:39:09 AM

BTW, what happened to Clarence Boddicker and Dick Jones' video suggestion and to Keeper Agruss' video suggestion that I proposed some time ago?

Edited by WatTambor on Apr 4th 2022 at 4:41:36 PM

Nathanoraptor Since: Oct, 2010
#308177: Apr 4th 2022 at 6:52:04 AM

I should point out the Hunter Krogan killed wasn't because of any moral objection - it was just because the way they were trapping them was "unsporting".

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#308178: Apr 4th 2022 at 7:17:33 AM

Recap for "Bad Teeth" is up, Marnassier can be placed on the corresponding YMMV page.

Edited by k410ren on Apr 4th 2022 at 10:17:44 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Misry6 Imperfect Disgrace from the Eternal Nothingness Since: Nov, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Imperfect Disgrace
#308179: Apr 4th 2022 at 7:37:00 AM

Krogan is a tough sell for me, especially compared to Grimmel, who has fewer resources than him, as Krogan was Drago's right-hand man. The only minions that Grimmel has is six Deathgrippers, and committed genocide on the Night Furies, while Krogan the second-in-command of the Northern Alliance. However, apparently Krogan's an even worse Bad Boss than everyone else in the series, and seems to have a bodycount of at least nine of his own minions. It would seem to me that he stands out with personal villainy, but… IDK.

Just an empty void…
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#308180: Apr 4th 2022 at 7:40:28 AM

Alrighty, after a bit of a break from proposals, who's ready for more Green Arrow stuff?

What is the work?

Green Arrow (Rebirth), which is really just volume 6 of the title, is exactly what you think it is - the GA series of the Rebirth movement. It takes the character back to his roots, bringing Black Canary back, working out of Seattle while also acting as CEO of Queen Industries, and really focusing on his relationships with the other characters, especially his allies. It's also the first modern GA comic that I actually enjoyed reading, but that's neither here nor there. In this series, Ollie primarily goes up against the Ninth Circle, which is essentially a supervillain bank with influence around the world, so we're gonna talk about a few of its leaders and members before we get to others.

Surprisingly enough, the first example isn't Dante the leader, though we'll hear from him soon enough. The first example is someone that I genuinely didn't expect yet became the easiest keeper of the comic - Moira fucking Queen.

Who is Moira Queen? What does she do?

Moira Queen is Oliver's mother, who for years he thought was dead. In reality, she's not only alive, but she's a high ranking member of the Ninth Circle and she's got some grand plans for Seattle. Through the current CFO of Queen Industries, she intends to basically "kill" Seattle so that she can then buy it out, turning it into a technological haven for the rich where she has ultimate power - a plan she intends to replicate on a global scale. Of course, Oliver stands in her way, so she has Broderick frame him for murder, kicking him out of Queen Industries in the process and allowing Broderick to take the CEO position. From there, Broderick immediately begins working to prevent a peace treaty in the middle east, intending to let nine countries duke it out, but the plan ultimately doesn't work and he turns his attention back to Seattle.

At Moira's order, he begins destroying Green Arrow's life as well, hiring Merlyn to attack people who criticize Green Arrow to frame him for crimes and destroy his reputation. Broderick also hires the Wild Dogs to attack a peaceful protest on a Native reservation, leading to a massive battle, before Moira directs him to begin killing the city. To that end, Cheshire crashes several planes, killing hundreds and closing the airport, Brick levels some buildings, and Eddie Fyers infests the hotels with bugs to crash the economy, with all three causing further chaos like trying to poison the water supply and blowing up cars in traffic.

However, after Broderick fails to convert Oliver to their side and almost destroys the ritualistic tomb the Queens have for the Ninth Circle, Dante orders her death. To this end, she throws Broderick to the wolves for failing to take Oliver off the board, torturing him repeatedly and intending to give him to Dante to pay off her debt, before seeking Oliver out personally and giving him her sob story about growing up poor and how she needs help now. Oliver, trusting his heart instead of his head, trusts her, and she directs him to the wreck of the Inferno, one of the Ninth Circle's battleships that Oliver previously sunk - it'll have enough gold to get the Queen fortune back and pay off her debt - but of course as soon as they get the gold, Moira leaves him to die at the bottom of the ocean.

She tries to take the gold to Dante and offer it, Broderick, and Oliver in exchange for her life, but Dante points out that the gold was always his and thus she's not paying anything back right before Oliver and his team walk in. Team Arrow clashes with Moira, Shado, and Merlyn (whom Moira's having an affair with), but Moira makes a crucial mistake - she tries to shoot Oliver and Emiko takes the bullet. This drives Shado into a rage and she attacks Moira, seemingly throwing them both into lava in a Mutual Kill.

Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?

Frankly, no. She mentions growing up poor and having to claw her way up, but now she's at the top and insists on destroying the same people that she used to be just to secure her own power - if it's meant to be sympathetic (and I don't think it is), it falls flat, even without the possibility that she's just talking out of her ass because she's trying to manipulate Oliver. Other than that, she cheated on her husband with Merlyn while he was alive (and he's nothing but a weapon to her now) and the way she talks about him indicates that he was just her meal ticket, and she tries to kill Oliver multiple times just to save her own sorry ass.

Notably, the reason why Broderick doesn't count even though he's a textbook case of "he's only acting on orders but is insanely sadistic about it" is because he's got some kind of religious reverence for the temple that Moira operates out of, and as fucked up as it is there's clearly some kind of genuine religious belief in the Queen family and their power over the Ninth Circle (he says all this to someone that he has no reason to lie to), but Moira just uses it as a vessel for power and to save herself.

Is she heinous enough?

Moira is behind a frankly shocking amount of bad things due to her influence over Cyrus Broderick. We're talking almost restarting a war that would've led to thousands of deaths, multiple planes crashing, the complete shutdown of Seattle's economy, the mass poisoning of the city's water supply, buildings being leveled, almost killing her own son, and happily shooting Emiko. She mooooooore than meets the standard.

Final verdict?

Shockingly easy keeper - what about you?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#308182: Apr 4th 2022 at 8:17:58 AM

That's a yep to Moira.

Krogan is a tough sell for me, especially compared to Grimmel, who has fewer resources than him, as Krogan was Drago's right-hand man. The only minions that Grimmel has is six Deathgrippers, and committed genocide on the Night Furies.

I don't really agree with the resource breakdown here...in HTTYD 3 Grimmel has Drago's entire army in his pocket during his attack on Berk and even then the deal is portrayed as lopsided in Grimmel's favor. Not to mention what he stole from Eyr Stormheart even before that.

I don't think Krogan has less, but Grimmel has more than you give him credit for. He's not just one lone dragon hunter, he's managing an army as big as Krogan's own for the duration of his onscreen time.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#308184: Apr 4th 2022 at 8:54:36 AM

Yes to Moira.

Scraggle, you see my questions about the Brothers Royal?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#308188: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:01:35 AM

And now that we've got her, let's hear from her boss.

Who is Dante? What does he do?

Dante is the leader of the Ninth Circle and is thus the sponsor for almost every evil organization that exists in the world. If there's been any kind of terrorist activity, the odds are high the Ninth Circle financed it somehow. In particular, Dante's power comes not from his insane wealth, but from his Burners, his specially conditioned workers who are loyal only to him. How does he do this you ask? He puts them in a "baptism chamber" that boils them alive until their skin is gone, leaving them in such constant agony that the only thing they can think about is serving him.

Dante is introduced buying a round of slaves from the Underground Men, whom he gets slaves from once a month to convert into his Burners and give him reach across the globe. Through his power and Burners, he does things like kill anyone he feels has outlived their usefulness or their debt by burning them alive, forcibly converting an entire island nation into an opium farm after burning half of the leader's face off, and allowing Moira and Broderick to ensure a war through a constructed assassination. Basically, Dante is an absolutely shitty human being, and Oliver is happy to begin the effort to take him down.

Surprisingly, though, his actual appearances are pretty few and far between. He appears to threaten Broderick when Oliver first becomes a problem, threatens to kill Emiko for Shado's poor performance, intends to subject Black Canary to the same baptism he subjects his Burners too before getting to Oliver (and then getting thrown in it himself), and then he reappears later to hire Shado to kill Moira and Broderick, as their debt has grown too large. Shado kills Broderick, and when Moira attempts to appeal to Dante by retrieving his stolen money, he isn't pleased with her attempt and, after shredding the idea that she's a true Queen by pointing out that even Emiko (who is currently dying, to his extreme lack of care) has more of a claim than her, he collapses the floor everyone's standing on, leading to the fight that (potentially) kills Moira and Shado.

His last reference comes in the next issue when it's revealed that he's kidnapped the daughter of the prosecutor on Oliver's murder trial, with one of his Burners texting the man a picture saying that if Oliver gets to defend himself, then the daughter gets burned to death. Luckily, Batman saves the daughter; unluckily, Dante's still in the wind by the end.

Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?

He'll say that he'll forgive Emiko's debt in exchange for Shado's services - disregarding that the only reason she even has a "debt" is because he inherited it from someone else and because Shado repaying it herself apparently wasn't enough for him, there's no indication that it's anything other than a pragmatic business transaction. Dante has literally nothing else that he can offer Shado since she doesn't give a shit about money, so Emiko is the only way he can get her on his payroll. It's nothing more than a business transaction, and he'd previously threatened Emiko for Shado's behavior before (and passively watches her die later), so it's certainly not out of any care for human life. It's the same way how he can be "impressed" by someone - he can be pleased by the work they do for him, but there's no genuine respect there; people are tools to him and nothing more, and he'll turn on them the moment he feels their "debt" is too large.

Is he heinous enough?

Eaaaaaasily. On top of either explicitly or implicitly supporting everything Moira and Broderick have done, he's also partnered with an incredibly horrific human trafficking operation in the Underground Men, forcibly converted an entire Native island tribe into opium farmers by burning half of a woman's face off, and has boiled easily hundreds of people alive in order to turn them into his loyal Burners, who are always in excruciating pain for the rest of their lives. There's an argument that he's the most heinous baddie GA has ever faced in his career (maybe Prometheus might beat him but that's a big maybe), much less in this comic.

Final verdict?

Easy keeper #2, with three more proposals to come

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#308189: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:07:24 AM

Yes to Dante.

Honestly, if my skin was burned off, I'd be more focused on the pain than on serving the person who did it.

Remaining candidates Cheshire, Brick, Eddie Fyers, head of the Underground Men?

Who's this Prometheus and why doesn't he count?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#308190: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:12:18 AM

The remainders are the head of the Underground Men, Fyers, and a fuck-off police officer

And the logic there is basically that they're in so much pain that they kinda had to become sadists by default (one of them says that when it's literally all you can think about, you have to learn to enjoy it), so serving Dante kinda works for them after all that... it's fucked up, is the main point

I'm pretty sure Prometheus (the guy who destroyed Star City in Cry for Justice) has a sympathetic backstory, but I wouldn't know cause he's in over 100 issues and I'm not tackling that - Firefly's already going to be enough of a challenge [lol]

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 4th 2022 at 1:15:04 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#308191: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:21:18 AM

Makes sense.

Though no Cheshire? Who killed hundreds? Huh.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#308192: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:24:45 AM

Even the slightest shred of research would reveal she has a daughter she loves. Stop asking these.

Yes to Star’s

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#308193: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:25:19 AM

[tup] Featuring Dante from the Green Arrow series

It's Spooky Month!
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#308194: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:28:24 AM

[tup] to Moira and Dante

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#308195: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:41:53 AM

[up][up][up] Also, looking it up just now, apparently she's now The Atoner (as is the original Clayface? Whoa).

Edited by ACW on Apr 4th 2022 at 1:47:57 PM

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#308196: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:49:48 AM

[tup] for Brother Royal I, II, and III, Moira, and Dante.

So... I just found I've been in proximity to someone with COVID; gonna get tested in the morning, but if I'm here tomorrow night, it means I've put my current routine on hold and will be trying to take my mind off it.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#308198: Apr 4th 2022 at 10:55:39 AM

[tup] Moira and Dante. Hope things go well, TellAll.

Edited by CloisterTheStupid on Apr 4th 2022 at 6:56:42 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#308200: Apr 4th 2022 at 11:16:50 AM

[tup]Moira and Dante.

Speaking of Rebirth, I was wondering if Wonder Woman had any keepers from there or New 52. (Then again, considering what the New 52 did to the Amazons....)

Why so serious?

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