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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

NattesNovgrel from The Middle of Misery, South of Iowa Since: Apr, 2020
#307376: Mar 28th 2022 at 5:04:21 PM

[up] [up][up] just wanted to note that I think probably only the last 44 seconds of the Udo video is necessary.

Also apologies for not noting a time stamp for the Joker video, I’ll remember next time.

Edited by NattesNovgrel on Mar 28th 2022 at 7:04:44 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#307377: Mar 28th 2022 at 5:07:19 PM

Yes to Dragon Master.

I got another one from World of Warcraft that I think I skipped over too fast from the current expansion. I'll be do that effort post on Wednesday.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#307378: Mar 28th 2022 at 5:11:31 PM

Oh, while I'm here, I wanna cut down an older writeup of mine so it's less wordy and less grammatically awkward.

  • 3Below: General Val Morando, the exiled leader of the Talyon Phalanx, is an inveterate user of disposable pawns who fancies himself a Galactic Conqueror. In the premiere, Morando seizes the throne by launching a destructive coup on Akiridion-5, oppressing the populace, with their resistance punished with death. Morando manipulates the royals' protector, Varvatos Vex, by having a civilian satellite destroyed to kill Vex's family and hundreds of innocents with them, using it to turn him against the royals and gleefully pledging to make him watch as he kills his new family when Vex realizes he's been played. Throughout the series, Morando attempts to torture one of the heroes' allies into becoming his new general; murders his failed minions and bounty hunters for reasons as petty as delivering him bad news; falsely promises the bigoted Colonel Kubritz a world without aliens, before killing her when she disobeys him; lobs a meteorite at Earth merely to disguise his own arrival upon it; and, after slaughtering his way through swathes of the royals' allies, integrates himself with the core of Gaylen to make himself a virtual god, intent on destroying and reshaping the universe to give it the "order" he so craves.

to

  • 3Below: General Val Morando is an inveterate Manipulative Bastard and would-be Galactic Conqueror who, in the premiere, takes over the planet Akiridion-5 and reduces it to a fascistic hellhole through a brutal coup. Morando plays Varvatos Vex, the defender of the royal family, for years, having murdered Vex's entire family alongside hundreds of other innocent people simply to use a fake pretext to manipulate Vex. When Vex catches onto his lies, Morando gleefully pledges to make Vex watch as he kills his new Family of Choice instead. Throughout the series, Morando murders failed minions and bounty hunters, sometimes for reasons as petty as delivering bad news; strings along the bigoted Colonel Kubritz before killing her as well when she disobeys him; kills many of the heroes' allies; and attempts to transform himself into a god in order to destroy and remake the entire universe to give it the "order" he so craves, nearly wiping out much of Arcadia Bay in the process.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#307379: Mar 28th 2022 at 5:11:47 PM

So with like, three new movies coming out based of Pinocchio, I ended up revisiting two live action movies based off the story; The Adventures Of Pinocchio and it's sequel The New Adventures of Pinocchio.

The original film tells the basic Pinocchio story, while the sequel has the now human Pinocchio and his father shanghaied into a travelling circus. One thing to note about the original film, is that it writes the story's three antagonists (Mangiafuoco, the Coachman and even the Dogfish) into the same character.

With all that said, here's the duology's villain, Lorenzini.

Who is Lorenzini ? What does he do ?

A rich and powerful puppet master, Lorenzini was a rival to the more humble Geppetto, not that it stopped him from trying to buy puppets from the man. When word gets out that Geppetto has a living puppet son, Lorenzini is quick to try to buy him off from Geppetto. Geppetto refuses of course, and Lorenzini settles for buying some regular puppets. When a mishap at a bakery gets Pinocchio and Geppetto arrested, Lorenzini shows up at the trial, making a show of paying off Geppetto's debt, and asks he be allowed to adopt Pinocchio, claiming he can provide for him in a way Geppetto never could.

At first, Lorenzini seems to treat Pinocchio right, giving him a starring role in one of his plays and even giving him four gold coins...then he tries setting Pinocchio on fire with Geppetto's puppets. Pinocchio manages to save the puppets, but accidentally starts a fire in the process. With his business collapsed, Lorenzini comes up with the next logical step to making money...

That being, getting his hands on an elixir that can turn people into animals, depending on their personalities; taking hundreds of children at a time to Terra Magica; having them behave unruly in a series of carnival games, spiking the drinks with this cursed water. Many children are turned into donkeys, who Lorenzini has whipped into shape to be sold off as slaves. He even orders one to be skinned in order to make himself a pair of boots. Pinnochio is caught up in Terra Magica, witnessing his friend Lampwick being turned and is nearly turned into a donkey himself. When Pinnochio frees the captive donkeys and tries to warn the other children, Lorenzini rips off his ears and tries to turn the kids against him. This fails when the transformed Lampwick kicks Lorenzini into a pool, where he slowly transforms into a whale like sea monster, and escapes out to sea.

When Pinnochio learns that his father went out to sea to find him, he takes a rowboat and tries to find Geppeto himself. Both are found and swallowed whole by the transformed Lorenzini, but manage to escape when Pinnochio uses his nose to open Lorenzini's throat hole, causing him to choke them back up. After Lorenzini's defeat, Pinnochio becomes a real boy, and the transformed donkey's turn back to their human selves.

Come the second movie, and Lorenzino is believed to be dead. In truth, he got his hands on a healing elixir, which allowed him to become mostly human again. Lorenzini disguises himself as one "Madame Flambeau", claiming to be his widow and becomes the leader of a travelling carnival, which includes a freak show. One of the exhibits is an aquarium of people Lorenzini turned into half fish abominations, who he keeps captive and regularly eats as a dish.   Not even killing or cooking them first. Just strait up tries to eat them alive.

When the now human Pinocchio and Lampwick visit his circus and witness "Madame Flambeau's" healing elixir, and try to buy it off her. She gives them free samples, in exchange for a contract that they would work for her. Pinocchio gives the elixir to his ailing father...who is then turned into a puppet. Threatening to have them arrested for contract fraud, "Madame Flambeau" forces them to be regular performers at the carnival. Lampwick is also turned into a sea-donkey, and kept in the aquarium, under the threat of being eaten. When Pinocchio plans to escape with his father, "Flambeau" coerces him into drinking the elixir and becoming a puppet again, on the false promise that Lampwick and Geppetto will be restored and freed.

When Pinocchio and Geppetto are made to perform for a Prince, but are stolen away (Pinocchio by his friend Pepe, Geppetto by two of "Flambeau's" disgruntled henchmen) and replaced with mundane puppets, which gets "Flambeau" accused of fraud. Pepe tries to take them (and Lampwick) to the Heart of the Mountain, which has a pool of water that can restore transformed victims back to their true selves. Lorenzini finally reveals himself and tracks them down to the mountain, intending on having Lampwick cooked and eaten, using Pinocchio and Geppetto as firewood.

Pinocchio, Geppetto and Lampwick escape into the cave, where they find the pool and Lampwick is turned back into a human. Seeing the waters power, Lorenzini tries to dive in to cure his own ailments, causing him to transform into a half-human-half-fish monstrosity. While Pinocchio and his father return to their human forms, and perform a puppet show for the prince, Lorenzini is put in a cage and jeered at by carnival attendants...only to escape from his cage in a mid credits scene.

There was no further sequel after that...

Mitigating Qualities ?

Nothing. In the first film, he's got this faux charming persona, but otherwise started out being an arrogant prick. In the first half of the movie, the worst he tries to do is burn Pinocchio and other non sapient puppets, which in turn gets his business set on fire ? What does he do to put money in his pockets then ? Operates Pleasure Island, that's what.

On the films page, there is a Pet the Dog moment listed to him, but it doesn't hold up. He gives Pinocchio four gold coins for doing his job, but the context is him buttering him, moments before trying to set him on fire (on top of everything else he later tries on Pinocchio). Afterwards he just becomes The Coachman. The second film is a little more slapsticky than the first, but Lorenzini is still played seriously enough, despite one or two jokes made at his expense (his henchmen pressuring him into signing a contract, and him acting snide when it's rendered void).

As for heinousness, like the Coachman, he's running an Amusement Park of Doom to lure hundreds of children, turning them into donkeys to be sold into slave labor. He even orders one to be skinned to make him a pair of boots. The sequel has him otherwise playing the part of a crooked carnival master, but they add something extra by making him a pseudo cannibal. He would turn innocent people into fishlike monstrosities, keep them captive in his aquarium, and would have them eaten alive as part of a dish.  While we don't see him successfully eat anyone, we see three attempts and enough to show this is something he does regularly. Towards the end, he's planning to eat Lampwick, and have him cooked with Pinocchio and Geppetto as firewood.

Edited by Beast on Mar 28th 2022 at 5:12:39 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#307380: Mar 28th 2022 at 5:28:23 PM

Yes to Lorenzini, sounds like an... interesting duology.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#307381: Mar 28th 2022 at 5:42:02 PM

[tup]Lorenzini

Abstain on Caesar Clown due to unfamiliarity, but it does sound damning.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#307382: Mar 28th 2022 at 5:48:54 PM

I had recently looked at the Duology to see if Lorenzini counted and honestly the reason I held of proposing him is that I was concerned his rather comedic defeat might be a bit too much to overlook especially since he was already quite laughable.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Mar 28th 2022 at 5:56:12 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#307383: Mar 28th 2022 at 5:57:24 PM

I didn't find his defeat that comedic to be honest; sure his henchmen where laughing at his expense, but the acutal scene didn't have that much of a comedic edge. Here's the scene in question.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#307384: Mar 28th 2022 at 6:01:27 PM

watching the scene I think he's fine, it seems mostly played seriously.

spyland2 Since: Jun, 2021
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#307386: Mar 28th 2022 at 6:17:13 PM

[up][up][up] That isn't actually the scene I am referring to there is one after where he in his mutated state has been made a carnival attraction and everyone is laughing at him.

[up] I will add that.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Mar 28th 2022 at 6:17:25 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#307387: Mar 28th 2022 at 6:22:25 PM

[up] You mean this scene ? (14 minute mark). Again, there's really not much in comedy in that scene, let alone anything that nullifies what he's been doing beforehand.

Edited by Beast on Mar 28th 2022 at 6:22:39 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#307388: Mar 28th 2022 at 6:33:18 PM

[up] Yeah that is the one. I will admit you do have a good point there I am just still not personally sure on that so I will be abstaining, I would be fine if he went up though.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Mar 28th 2022 at 6:35:05 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#307389: Mar 28th 2022 at 6:43:20 PM

Yeah I think he's fine after watching that scene, it's closer to Laser-Guided Karma than anything mitigating for this (plus the fact that ha apparently escapes later mitigates the embarrassing aspects of it)

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#307390: Mar 28th 2022 at 6:49:57 PM

I have another Star wars I wanna get in real quick, this being a short one from the Young Jedi Knights series by Kevin J. Anderson and Rebecca Moesta.

The series is divided in about 3 series of several books apiece: the first is the heroes facing a resurgent empire, led by Luke's former apprentice Brakiss. The second involves a terrorist group called the Diversity Alliance, who are targeting humanity itself....

Now, there are several leaders of the Alliance, most don't keep for lack of deeds. One, however?

Who is Hovrak?

A Shistavanen Wolfman, Hovrak is a vicious anti-human racist and the enforcer of the Diversity Alliance's leader Nolaa Tarkona. One of the driving forces of terrorism in the group, Hovrak helps to present it as an alien rights group, while disguising some of the least savory aspects. For one thing? When you're in, you're in for life.

Lusa, one of the friends of the Solo kids, ends up joining in the hopes of finding a group for alien rights, but begins growing disturbed with the violent rhetoric and increasing fanaticism. One of her friends tries to back out and get a message to the authorities. Hovrak apprehends him, and eats him alive before the rest as a warning. Hovrak is alo a driving force in Nolaa's plan, being the one to locate a specialized plague. He and Nolaa intend to release it for one purpose:

Galactic genocide. Hovrak gloats to Nolaa how they can spread it from world to world and every human in the entire galaxy will die soon enough. Hovrak's cannibalism, btw, is not a one-off thing. One sequence indicates Hovrak literally functions for certain communities as capital punishment and has criminals shipped to him to eat them. Nolaa is even surprised when she learns one poor sucker is there for cheating in a casino (a criminal offense in that jurisdiction) and Hovrak's just "Eh, them's the breaks" before walking in to the cell. Immediately, Nolaa hears the guy begging. Then screaming. Then Hovrak is eating.

This ends when the Solos help Lusa and the others escape, along with the Wookiee Jedi Lowbacca to get Nolaa's plans to the New Republic. Hovrak tries to hunt them down and murder them, when they end up fighting over a molten lake. Lusa kicks a distracted Hovrak in the chest, throwing him down into the magma where h burns alive.

Mitigating issues?

Hovrak is the second in command of the Diversity Alliance, but he's easily the most savagely vile. He's a serial killer who eats his victims alive, and is a driving force in unleashing the plague. Nolaa herself would easily keep, if not for her backstory: she hates humans thanks to slavers taking her family and her sister was enslaved by Jabba the Hutt. In fact, she was the dancer Jabba fed to his Rancor. Nolaa incontrovertibly still loves and mourns her...and in a strange way, Nolaa does care about alien races and genuinely devotes resources to saving them. Hovrak is a vicious sadist and racist, with no good qualities to him whatsoever.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#307392: Mar 28th 2022 at 7:54:21 PM

[tup]Hovrak

Any more responses to Ceasar Clown?

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#307393: Mar 28th 2022 at 7:54:24 PM

Yes to Dragon Master,Lorenzini and Hovrak.

Here is my Popper writer up:

  • Rhymes for Young Ghouls: Popper is a racist and corrupt Indian Affairs Agent who has the power to take away native children and send them to a residential school. Popper uses this power to terrorize a local native reserve, giving out beatings to any native men he dislikes and extracting bribes from native people so he doesn't take their children away. Any native children sent to Popper's residential school are threatened with violence, torture, and even murder if they displease him. Popper also sexually assaults his students. When a native girl named Aila steals back some of the money Popper took from her and humiliates him in the process, Popper confronts her, threatens to murder her father right in front of her, and then attempts to rape her.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#307394: Mar 28th 2022 at 7:56:18 PM

[tup] to Lorenzini and Hovrak

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
TBmacho22 Since: Jul, 2021 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
#307395: Mar 28th 2022 at 8:08:08 PM

I have a Legend of Zelda proposal: Ganondorf's surrogate mothers Koume and Kotake aka Twinrova from Ocrania of Time

Who are they? What have they done?

Koume and Kotake are the diabolical surrogate mothers of Ganondorf, being the ones responsible for his actions in the game. After Link obtains the Silver Gauntlets, the duo kidnap the Gerudo leader, Nabooru and turn her into a brainwashed servant, having her committing atrocities that she herself was highly against doing, including experimenting brainwashing people in the ruins of the desert. When Link as an adult returns to the Spirit Temple, the duo sic the brainwashed Nabooru on him using the slow but dangerous Iron Knuckle to crush and when he beats her and sets her free, the duo attempt to brainwash her again before attempting to kill Link. Returning in the Downfall Timeline in Oracle of Ages/Seasons, they attempt to resurrect Ganon by unleashing Veran, a CM herself, and General Onox to cause chaos across the land to light two of the three flames: the Flames of Sorrow and the Flames of Destruction. After the Flames of Destruction are lit, the sisters rub it in Link's face before kidnapping Zelda to use her as a sacrifice to ignite the final flame: the Flame of Despair. Once Link defeats them, the duo attempt to resurrect Ganon by sacrificing themselves to bring back his reign of terror, only to bring back a mindless Ganon in beastial form.

Henious Standard?

The two are responsible for Ganon's actions in Ocrania of Time and responsible for Veran's and General Onox's actions in the Oracle games. They brainwash a close ally of Link's and they kidnap and attempt to sacrifice Zelda to bring back Ganon's reign of terror. They're responsible for all the misery that's happend in those two games.

Mitigating Factors?

The part about Nabooru experimenting with brainwashed people at the ruins is actually told though an NPC, not shown on screen so that does count as Offscreen Villainy. Other than that no

Verdict?

I give a cautious [tup] to these two.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#307396: Mar 28th 2022 at 8:13:55 PM

I’m pretty sure they love their adopted son to the point of sacrificing themselves to revive him in the Oracle games, so [tdown].

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#307397: Mar 28th 2022 at 8:21:00 PM

[tdown] Twinrova, yeah I know that Zelda's continuity is messy but Ocarina of Time is constant across all timelines so you can't really ignore their redeeming quality from the Oracle Games.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#307398: Mar 28th 2022 at 8:47:59 PM

[tdown] to Twinrova

Alrighty, I know very few people on this thread care, but just to cover it - Knight of Salem ended today and that's all there is to say. The fic is too comedic for Cinder or Adam to qualify (she does things like set her evil laughter on a loop during the Battle of Beacon, and he gets caught in a petty love quadrangle between himself, Blake, Mercury, and Ilia) even if there's a heinousness argument for them, and Jax Asturias still sticks out like a goddamn sore thumb in both of those regards with his insanely bad slavery operation, so he's still good. And that's that about that!

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#307399: Mar 28th 2022 at 9:38:17 PM

No to Twinrova.

Finished Tiny Tina's Wonderlands, pretty solid game. PM me for details if anyone's curious.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 28th 2022 at 9:38:31 AM

Blazing_Larvesta Blazing Larvesta from Unova Route 18 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Blazing Larvesta
#307400: Mar 28th 2022 at 9:39:08 PM

[tdown] to Twinrova

As for Caesar Clown, I'm all for giving him the boot at this point, though seeing as how he hasn't been seen since Whole Cake Island, I don't imagine the consensus would have changed much since the end of that arc. Still, if anyone has anything to bring up, I would like to hear it.


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