During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Sure to Malcolm Crowley.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
I haven't seen any indication of that yet but it wouldn't suprise me. It was written by one of the guys who did Wire in the Blood which really leaned into that kind of thing.
RE: Darktail: He's closer to a Hate Sink and he genuinely was revealed to be Made of Evil by his mother. While we have become more lenient on MoE candidates now with Ghirahim being a prime example. He's not exactly what I'd call mentally stable, given that characters noticed him going insane. Plus Jerkass Has a Point with Onestar being a crappy father. The problem with WC is that the series has very wonky continuity that means even a single sentence in a book (like Tigerstar's love for Sasha and Brambleclaw) prevents most characters from being examples or even Hate Sinks. Scourge's excuse though is as flimsy as Muruta Azrael from Gundam Seed. It also doesn't help Onestar himself is a borderline Scrappy Hate Sink from the third series until his death so Darktail's revenge on his old man seems justified to an extent.
Edited by Klavice on Mar 26th 2022 at 2:23:40 AM
Was rewatching The Shawshank Redemption recently and think there may be one more qualifier we may have overlooked in addition to the two keepers we already have.
Who is Byron Hadley? What does he do?
Byron Hadley is the captain of the guards at Shawshank Prison, a ruthless and sadistic bully who is, in Red's words, a "colossal prick."
On Andy Dufresne's first night in prison, another inmate breaks down crying, insisting he doesn't belong there. Hadley threatens him to shut up, and when the man continues crying, Hadley starts beating him and doesn't stop until the guy quits making noise. Not long after this, we learn that the man has died from his injuries. While it's not outright stated in the movie, it's implied thar this kind of thing happens on a regular basis.
When Andy and a few friends are working on the roof, Andy overhears Hadley complaining about paying taxes on some inheritance. Andy, being a banker, knows a way around these taxes and approaches Hadley. He is nearly thrown off the roof to his death before telling Hadley that the IRS allows a one-time tax free gift to one's spouse. He offers to help Hadley set it up for the small fee of three beers each for each inmate working on the roof (more on this below).
After Andy is beaten by Bogs Diamond and sent to the infirmary for a month, Hadley visits Bogs' cell. As Bogs cowers and screams for help, Hadley beats him so badly that he never walks again and spends the rest of his life drinking his food through a straw. More on this below too.
When inmate Tommy Williams has evidence that could lead to Andy getting a new trial, Norton has Hadley murder the boy and frame it as an escape attempt. Hadley shoots Tommy dead without any hesitation.
While we don't actually see it happen, when Hadley is arrested at the end of the movie, we're told he breaks down crying like a little girl, revealing that he's been nothing but a Dirty Coward all along.
Is he heinous by the work's standards?
Hadley has two keepers to compete with: his boss Warden Norton and Bogs Diamond.
While Norton is the one running the prison, it isn't accurate to say that everything Hadley does is on Norton. The only crime Hadley commits in the film specifically under Norton's orders is the murder of Tommy. While Norton implicitly condones Hadley abusing and murdering inmates by not doing anything to stop it, there's nothing to suggest that he's ordered Hadley to behave this way. Hadley is a sociopathic bully all on his own.
As for Bogs, I'd say that they're about equal, given their respective resources. Both stand out as especially sadistic within their respective hierarchies, and both are ultimately revealed as pathetic cowards when met with actual resistance from someone who can fight back.
Any redeeming qualities?
Hadley has a few moments that might be interpreted as Pet the Dog, but they don't really qualify because none of them are done out of genuine altruism or humanity. Hadley has a pragmatic reason for each of them:
- Not throwing Andy off the roof: Had Hadley killed Andy, then as Andy himself pointed out, he'd have to go through the trouble of hiring a lawyer to help him set up the tax-free gift for his inheritance, which would cost him a lot of money. Sparing Andy was in his best interests financially.
- Buying beer for Andy's friends: same as above. Literally the only reason he does this is because sparing a few bucks for some beers is preferable to shelling out hundreds or possibly thousands on a lawyer, and Hadley knows it.
- Crippling Bogs: Bogs is a reprehensible monster in his own right, and is very much an Asshole Victim. This isn't why Hadley cripples him, though. Bogs is free to brutalize Andy and others for two years, with Hadley not giving a damn or lifting a finger to stop it. Him paying Bogs back for what he does to Andy isn't because he's suddenly had a change of heart, and it's definitely not a case of Even Evil Has Standards. It's because Norton had learned that Andy was useful to him in his money laundering schemes, and Bogs had nearly killed him by beating him so badly he spent a month in the infirmary.
Hadley's entry on the character sheet has an Even Evil Has Loved Ones entry that says he "has a wife and kids he clearly cares for." Maybe that's the case in the book. I haven't read the book, so I don't know. The film doesn't really go into detail about Hadley's family. The closest thing we get is when he gets angry and attempts to kill Andy over the latter's question of "do you trust your wife?" Here's the thing about that, though: Hadley is an asshole. His whole characterization is that he's a corrupt bully, and it isn't at all unreasonable to assume that Hadley's reaction wasn't so much because Andy brought up his wife, but because Andy had said anything at all. Hadley is a man who is shown to brutalize and straight-up murder inmates for the most insignificant of reasons, and his reaction to Andy's question wasn't particularly emotionally-charged. At least no more than usual. If he ends up not making the cut, it'll probably be for this reason, but to me personally it doesn't stick out as a redeeming quality. If I'm not mistaken, the book actually implies that Hadley is abusive to his family. Like I said, though, I've not read it, and we're not talking about the book anyway.
Verdict?
I think it's possible that he can keep if the bit about his wife is deemed to not be a genuine redeeming quality. If it is seen as redeeming though then I get it.
Edited by rosewood47 on Mar 26th 2022 at 5:58:55 AM
I haven't watched the film but this is what his page on another site says:
"Hadley has a wife and children, who he seems to genuinely care for, as he transferred $35,000 to his wife and was genuinely enraged when Andy suggested she was cheating on him."
I am not sure if the part about him being enraged about the possibility of her cheating on him is mitigating but the part which states he transferred $35000 to his wife gives me a huge pause.
Edited by WatTambor on Mar 26th 2022 at 1:02:03 PM
Sadly, no to Byron.
I have an image for AU Diego Brando to propose :
What do you think?
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 26th 2022 at 11:18:57 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)![]()
I have a hard time understanding what's going on there. I don't know anything about Jojo, so I'm sure It Makes Sense in Context.
Edit:
Glad I'm not the only one
Edited by rosewood47 on Mar 26th 2022 at 6:21:16 AM
He basically used his fangirls as human shields, but I'll look for some other image if you guys have a hard time understanding what's going on.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)

New EP from me.
The Bletchley Circle was a really charming detective show that aired from 2012-2014 and had two seasons. It centers around a team of women who used to work in Bletchley Park cracking codes for the allies during WW 2, and later decide to form a team of amatuer sleuths and apply their smarts to solving crimes instead. I believe I have one definite keep from this show and one I'm still pondering on, who I may post another EP for in a few days.
The first series centers around a series of killings that have rocked London. Five women have been found dead, and the police are at a loss as to how they could be connected. Sarah, however, decides that there must be something the police are missing. To that end, she gets her old team from Bletchley back together and they decide to investigate some of the deaths, but quickly realize that they are dealing with a monstrous killer who has far more victims than it initially appears.
Which brings us to…
Who is he?
Malcolm Crowley, the Big Bad of the first series. An unhinged maniac, Crowley is a necrophile and a Serial Killer attempting to recreate the same death again and again for his erotic pleasure, and has been on a killing spree throughout England.
What have they done?
Joining the Special Operations branch during World War 2, Malcolm first demonstrated his psychopathy by designing “motivation” posters that would be dropped on to German troops which really showed images of women having sex with men and insunations that this was what was happening to their girlfriends and loved ones back home, with the aim of destroying their morale. He showed quite a talent for this and his images only got more and more explicit and disturbing over time, disturbing his superior officer Cavendish with his enthusiasm and aptitude for psychological torture. He also began harassing a woman called Julie, who filed multiple complaints about his behavior to their superiors. However the building he worked in was bombed in a German air raid, killing everyone inside including Julie and burying him alive with her. Trapped for three days, Malcolm at some point raped her corpse and discovered that he loved the experience.
Being rescued, Malcolm was “different” afterwards. Becoming sexually obssesed with how defiling Julie felt like, Malcolm decides to recreate it on multiple other women for his erotic pleasure. First faking his death by setting fire to an innocent man and framing them to look like him, Malcolm escaped and decided to embark on a killing spree across the country with the following MO: Abducting women from public places, killing them, raping the corpses repeatedly and then planting evidence to frame a Fall Guy, resulting in their imprisonment and execution. He does this to at least seven women around the country before the series begins and framed multiple innocent men, in addition to murdering four more on the train line with the express aim of leading the authorities to believe that the mentally challenged ticket collector Gerald Wiggins was responsible.
Moving on to his twelfth victim, Malcolm’s activities soon caught the attention of Susan, but both her and the reassembled team were too late to stop him killing her as well as they began their investigations.
However, Susan accidentally stumbled upon him after gaining information from Cavendish, not knowing that the former hospital where he worked during the war was his hideout. Posing as a harmless doctor who assessed him and realizing she knew everything about what he had done, Crowley was delighted that someone had managed to figure out his game and spotted the pattern he left behind (he makes sure to dispose of the bodies in places that, when drawn up on a map, resemble a spiral pattern specifically to challenge people to solve it and try to find the center, with the center being the place where Julie died). Full of admiration for her intellectual ability, he decided that he would reward her by making her his next victim, only backing off then and there due to her lie that her husband is waiting in the car outside. He then broke into Cavendish’s home and killed him to tie up loose ends, framing it to look like he had taken his own life.
Laying a trap by planting a letter in Julie’s belongings (which he knows the circle led by Susan will obtain in their investigations) that gives them contact information for Julie’s father (which is actually Crowley’s telephone number), Crowley caught Susan in the act when she decided to call it without telling the others. Revealing that he had been following her all this time and would murder her children if she didn’t do exactly what he said, Crowley told her to go to his new base of operations. After she arrived, Malcolm attempted to force her to don Julie’s favourite perfume brand before he killed her, took sadistic enjoyment in her terror, and threatened to blow them both sky high with a bunch of grenades if she tried to flee. But before he could go through with it, the rest of the Bletchley circle arrived (having guessed something was wrong) and Crowley was shot. Spitefully attempting to blow everyone there up just because he knew he had lost, he proved to slow for Millie's aim, and she filled him with lead before he could do so, ending his murder spree at last.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse?
Nothing that holds up. It’s stated that his experience being Buried Alive with Julie underground altered his personality, but it’s then immediately noted by both Cavendish and the investigators that all it really did was bring the deranged psychopath he always was to the fore and he simply stopped pretending afterwards, and that his entire personality before was just a mask. He even alludes to this when he meets with Susan for the final time, hinting that the experience freed him and also shows no trauma or sadness that it happened, rendering this a classic case of Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse.
Likewise, he grows to admire Susan for figuring out his game in a very Faux Affably Evil way, engages in genuine Baddie Flattery and makes clear how much he respects her... and then rewards her for figuring it all out by threatening to kill her children and tries to make her his next victim, all whilst sadistically grinning when she breaks down in terror. Needless to say, it’s not redeeming in the slightest.
All in all then? Nothing.
Heinous Standard?
Most heinous killer on the show bar none, with a double digit body count and a plethora of disgusting crimes on top of that. We actually see him “enjoying” himself with a corpse at one point and it’s just as gross as it sounds. Easy pass.
Conclusion?
And a yes there.
Edited by Atlantis1930 on Mar 27th 2022 at 8:44:25 PM