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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#30651: Sep 13th 2014 at 2:04:35 PM

@ Ambar: Any opinions on Cally yourself? You're our Criminal Minds guy, I was wondering if you maybe remembered things about him I might have forgotten.

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#30652: Sep 13th 2014 at 2:51:55 PM

[tup] for Byakuran. Abstaining on Hades.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30653: Sep 13th 2014 at 2:56:49 PM

Basically with Jagi's backstory as being in his brothers shadow, and then later being hideously disfigured could potentially be sympathetic, it is presented in such a way that we have no sympathy for him.

Looking on the YMMV Page for the series, Shin and Jagi from the live action film are listed.

  • Complete Monster: As Marz Gurl points out, Shin in this movie is completely devoid of his sympathetic qualities. Then there's Jackal, but that's expected considering he's Jagi's Expy.

Live action Shin is a definite cut as he's just a standard Evil Overlord, and does seem to love Julia.

Live action Jagi might count if anyone is interested.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#30654: Sep 13th 2014 at 3:04:15 PM

Speaking of Jagi, just out of curiosity, what's the Anime/Manga version's body count? I've made the tweaks for the Fist entries at Anime And Manga Subpages, and it seems like the others have an extremely high body count, are notably sadistic, or Would Hurt a Child. Not debating his inclusion, just curious (my goodness Fist has some rather heinous villains doesn't it?).

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#30655: Sep 13th 2014 at 3:08:00 PM

He's got a huge one from his banditry.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#30656: Sep 13th 2014 at 3:19:23 PM

Thanks. BTW Lighty (or anyone): Do any of the FMA spoilers Anime And Manga Subpages need to stay spoiled, or can they be unspoiled?

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30657: Sep 13th 2014 at 3:19:39 PM

[up]

Badguys in the series are bloodthirsty in general, but Jagi takes it even higher. To give an example, a crippled boy steps on the foot one of Jagi's mooks, and the mook demands the foot of the crippled boy in payment! The younger brother of the crippled boy convinces the mook to take his foot in exchange for forgiving his crippled brother. Jagi enraged by the younger brother's heroism, takes him to the desert, ties him to a cinderblock, and leaves him there to die of thirst.

When Jagi is asked about it, he chuckles, and calls his victims mere insects.

Unspecified kill count, but certainly he's shown to have a high one.

  • Manipulated the Heroes friend into becoming an Evil Overlord, thus making him partially responsible for the resulting empires large body count.
  • Doing a Bait the Dog by saving a women from a thug, after they thank Jagi, he kills her brothers right in front of her, and makes her a Sex Slave.
  • When a girl was getting ready for wedding day, Jagi's henchman arrived to the village with Jagi himself killing her family, and Groom right in front of her. Afterwards, everyone in the village is killed except for the Bride who becomes a mentally broken Sex Slave
  • Its implied he's done things like this many times before.
  • Killing any villagers he comes across often just for the hell of it
  • Forcing the survivors to worship him.
  • Making people join his gang by cutting off the heads of other villagers.
  • Killing his own men for trivial reasons.

edited 13th Sep '14 3:22:22 PM by Monsund

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30659: Sep 13th 2014 at 3:40:05 PM

Basically Jagi's backstory was always being overshadowed by his younger brother in a martial art that demands there can only be one. He was later hideously disfigured, and left in a permanent state of agony.

What makes it not count, is Jagi is shown to be evil even in the early flashbacks. Kenshiro, the aforementioned younger brother, was shown to be sympathetic to Jagi in the past, and allowed him to win their fights in which Jagi would always cheat via spitting needles into Kenshiros eyes, and similar tricks. Jagi would always mock Kenshiro for his weakness though their father figure saw through, and told Kenshiro he'd have to man up when dealing with Jagi.

Jagi is also disfigured trying to murder Kenshiro with a shotgun for being chosen as the successor over him, with the latter giving Jagi plenty of opportunities to back down.

While Kenshiro's reaction of doing a head exploding technique might seem slightly extreme, the moment Kenshiro stops, and looks at Jagi with pity, Jagi immediately stops the pleading and cries of pain. Jagi then adopts an evil grin, telling Kenshiro that he will regret not killing him, and that he'll destroy all Kenshiro holds dear.

So Live action Jagi's rep sheet:

  • A Thug hired by Shin to lead his armies after he turned to evil. Its not said that Jagi was manipulating Shin here.
  • Was disfigured by Kenshiro after he tried to murder him. They aren't brothers here.
  • Tries to guillotine Lyn, a little girl only stopping when he realizes he can use her to lure the protagonist.
  • While Lyn is in his watch, Jagi tortures her, and tells his men to show her no mercy.
  • Murders his sympathetic underling.
  • Kills Rufi...I mean Bart
  • Tries to violently rape Julia while Shin is preoccupied.

I'm on the fence right now, and willing to hear other thoughts.

edited 13th Sep '14 3:48:09 PM by Monsund

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#30660: Sep 13th 2014 at 3:46:44 PM

I'd consider the Freudian Excuse maybe mitigating...except torturing and trying to kill a LITTLE GIRL?? That's BEYOND heinous. Don't know what the heinosity standard for the Live Action Fist is, but I'm inclined to vote [tup]

[nja]And if there ISN'T that excuse for Live!Jagi, then...

edited 13th Sep '14 3:54:50 PM by ACW

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30661: Sep 13th 2014 at 4:01:14 PM

[up]

Also live action Jagi is excited at the chance to kill people, brutally attacking a village. Jagi kills a village leader who surrendered and gave him villagers as workers a peace offering.

Bat, who Live action Jagi kill is like 13, or 14, not a little boy, but not a man either.

The other live action villains are just thugs, thugs under Jagi, and typical evil overlord Shin.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#30662: Sep 13th 2014 at 4:07:25 PM

Geez, so the Big Bad, no Freudian Excuse, almost kills (and does torture) a little girl, kills a teen, likes killing people, kills someone who had surrendered, Bad Boss, and Attempted Rape? Yeah, [tup][tup][tup]

edited 13th Sep '14 4:07:31 PM by ACW

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#30663: Sep 13th 2014 at 5:14:51 PM

Jagi is a [tup] in all mediums.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#30666: Sep 13th 2014 at 6:24:45 PM

I've only ever watched the feature-length Fist of the North Star anime and I fully agree with Jagi as a CM on that basis.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#30667: Sep 13th 2014 at 8:18:21 PM

Writeup for Cally:

  • Jackson Cally from "The Tribe" is a chilling example of what you get when you combine extreme sociopathy, charisma, and bigotry into one man. A cult leader native to Terra Mesa, a mostly-white New Mexico town known for tensions with a mostly-Apache town nearby, Cally preys on troubled teenagers interested in Native Americans, indoctrinating them into being willing to kill for him under the pretense of "helping" the Apache reclaim all their ancestral land, while keeping his true goal - attempting to foment a race war that would wipe the Apache out - a secret from them. He first sends his cult to massacre the residents of a college dormitory built on former Apache land in gruesome ways, such as decapitation and impalement, mimicking Native American war rituals, in hopes the Apache would be blamed and the whites would retaliate. When the FBI rule out the Apache as suspects, Cally has his men decapitate the leader of a local racist group, his wife, and his two young children and impale their heads on pikes for the FBI to find. His final and most wicked gambit, however, is to dress up his men as members of the racist group and send them on a wholesale massacre of the Apache town's school. When foiled and caught by the FBI, Cally's only justification for his actions is that he hoped to show the world what "savage animals" the Apache people "really" are.

edited 14th Sep '14 7:03:09 AM by HamburgerTime

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#30668: Sep 13th 2014 at 9:01:28 PM

[up]Charisma shouldn't be capitalized.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#30669: Sep 14th 2014 at 12:32:28 AM

[up][up]Wrap an Off with His Head! around decapitate, an Decapitation Presentation around "impale their heads on pikes," and replace "wickedest" with "most wicked" (wickedest may be a word, but sounds awkward to me). Otherwise [tup]. I'll submit that along with Turnatt Tuesday.

edited 14th Sep '14 3:09:49 AM by ACW

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#30670: Sep 14th 2014 at 5:52:28 AM

Ok, I've cut The Good Earth, Hate Plus, Twin of Twins, and Blood That Flows. Bravely Default looks like it'd be good with some rewrites, unless others want to discuss that one some more. Does anyone have any thoughts on King Belar and the two cited villains from Ueki? Bill Williamson from the two Rampage movies is also still unresolved.

Catching up for the last few pages: [tdown] on Garrosh, still [tdown] for Hades, [tup] for Cally and good write-up, [tdown] for Victoria, solid [tup] for Cronus, [tup] for Lord Turnat, Vincent St. Claire looks like it just needs a rewrite, [tup] for Byakuran.

Here are rewrites for two of the previous keeps.

  • Echoes: Yagura far outdoes his canon counterpart in heinousness and is easily the fic's most depraved villain. Seeing himself as "the ultimate predator", he hunts down and kills people for fun, engages in cannibalism, whimsically commits genocide to create a new master race, makes a sport out of murdering his minions for the most minor excuses possible, and ultimately wants to turn the world into a dog-eat-dog hellhole to rule over as a tyrannical warlord.

  • A Demon Among Devils: This verse's Kokabiel is the most evil and sadistic member of the Fallen Angels and the former leader of their council the Grigori. He's a genocidal maniac who firmly believes in the superiority of the Fallen, rekindling the Great War to wipe out as many other species as possible. He kills his Father to assume his power, will happily torture his enemies to death, callously sacrifices his own soldiers, and plans on raping Rias and Sona before killing them just to piss off Sirzechs and Serafall.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#30671: Sep 14th 2014 at 11:47:11 AM

Reposting my rewrite for Bill, just in case:

Rampage: Bill Williamson is a sadistic domestic terrorist who takes great pleasure in committing large-scale acts of violence. He attempts to justify his actions by claiming to be a revolutionary who's just doing what he has to in order to fight overpopulation and government corruption. However, the way he acts towards his victims reveals this to be a shallow excuse. He shoots up his small town in the first movie, and wracks up a body count of over 100. He enjoys every minute of this massacre, and mocks the people he kills as they beg for their lives. Several of his victims die simply because they inconvenienced him in some way prior to his rampage. Afterward, he kills his supposed best friend and frames him for the act while he skips town with a bag of money he stole during the attack. In the sequel, he takes over a TV studio. He kills several of the hostages he takes based on assumptions he makes about their lives. When one tearfully tells him that he killed her sister in his previous rampage, he responds by mocking her crying and taunting her. He then forces a male hostage at gunpoint to beat her up. After his demands are met, he lets the hostages go, only to kill them and everyone else in the immediate area by blowing up the studio while he escapes. In the final scene, he gives a little girl a gun and encourages her to go home and kill her parents before committing suicide. Claiming to do what he does for the good of humanity, Bill's utter enjoyment of the violence he causes and completely unnecessary acts of sadism out him as nothing more than a mentally disturbed psychopath who kills purely for the fun of it.

edited 15th Sep '14 8:13:36 AM by Pwnisher248

holders Since: Mar, 2013
#30672: Sep 14th 2014 at 1:52:22 PM

Rewrite for Bill looks great. Also, can we finally decide on Hades? There seems to be a tie but argument still make me vote against him. I feel that it should be more about arguments and not votes.

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#30673: Sep 14th 2014 at 2:33:23 PM

Jagi is by far the most despicable and heinous villain in the series. Most definitely a [tup] for him.

Bill Williamson's rewrite looks excellent, as does Morgenthaler's work on post 30682.

ekimmak Since: Nov, 2010
#30674: Sep 14th 2014 at 3:49:43 PM

I think at last count, Hades was actually one vote higher for cut than keep.

captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#30675: Sep 14th 2014 at 4:36:28 PM

Hey again.

I was wondering if I could potentially propose a rewrite for Yogscast Minecraft Series? I asked a few months ago whether Israphel and Jock_Fireblast qualified and nobody seemed to object. However, I think the article may require minor cleanup in terms of spoilers. I'd be happy to remove the spoilers to almost everything... except the fact that Israphel serves the Sand God, who is a Walking Spoiler merely by existing.

If I could get some feedback, that'd be much appreciated. I'll be back with a proposal for The Escape Artist.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.

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