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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#306251: Mar 20th 2022 at 9:54:10 AM

Honestly if it's used more as a plot device I am lenient on keeping it on Web Original since this feel likes a rare exception.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#306252: Mar 20th 2022 at 9:57:10 AM

It is "fundamentally" a web video which references a cursed copy of a Zelda game... Crow's right, put it on Web Original, it doesn't need to be crosslisted.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#306253: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:00:43 AM

The thing is even if the work is simply using it as a plot device that would be enough for it to be considered a fanfic by law as it is directly using characters from the series and the location all of which are copyrighted.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#306254: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:04:27 AM

By law? This is honestly getting absurd now.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#306255: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:05:04 AM

It has a work page which details what the work owes credit to. Referencing legal matters is strange because it feels like an attempt to strongarm us into placing the work where you want when I don't believe there's a "legal" matter with us putting it on Web Original rather than Fan Works and I don't much appreciate this trying to force.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#306256: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:08:03 AM

I will admit that may have come across pretty poorly. What I was trying to get across was that countries do have laws that govern what counts as fanfiction and what is considered copyright violation and by those laws, Ben Drowned would be considered fanfiction. And that is my argument for why I personally think it should be listed under fanfiction.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#306257: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:14:30 AM

Can you help me understand why so frequently when you make a suggestion for a change or placement of a work we get into legal matters, site rules that don't actually exist and claims that other people don't care for proper process? It really does feel like you're trying to force us to agree with however you personally want things listed. You try to say you're willing to accept any verdict but in the actual process of arguing we seem to devolve to old bad habits and as you've been told many times "I just worded that poorly" or "I was just joking" are only going to be believable so many times.

Tbh it's been enough warnings, I think I'll just start hollering further attempts to force us to follow a line of thinking because of matters beyond the concern of the thread or site rules that don't actually exist, it's just not a fair point to use.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 20th 2022 at 1:16:38 PM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306259: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:16:21 AM

FWIW, the fact it's listed under Zelda fanfic is what clinches it for me.

Hell, isn't Hubris digitized into the game?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#306260: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:18:45 AM

Dude anyone can add stuff to fanfic like that?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#306261: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:18:52 AM

I swear I am not trying to force anyone to follow my opinion, I am just giving my arguments and people can agree with me or not. You don't have to believe me but I am telling you this.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#306262: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:21:38 AM

Immediate and sustained improvement on communication will be necessary then please.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306263: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:27:59 AM

Mir: That's true. But considering Matt gets digitized into the game...

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#306264: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:30:08 AM

@STARCRUSHER99 Crazy, right?

@ACW World Alpha is portrayed as a virtual prison that just happens to be located inside a Majora's Mask cartridge, the plot and characters of the original game have no importance, they are merely avatars and Hubris is no different, dude's basically using a custom skin within the game. Like I said before, Majora's Mask is plot device.

[down] I'm pretty sure Sonic.exe has genuine non-avatar characters from the original game, Ben Drowned doesn't. We also have the addition that half of the story takes place outside Majora's Mask. And... I'm still okay with having Ben Drowned on both Web Original and Fan Works.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Mar 20th 2022 at 2:43:40 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#306266: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:36:05 AM

So... Crow has read the story. Let's like... maybe take his word into consideration here, I don't think he's hiding anything from you ACW.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#306267: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:36:20 AM

Btw what happened to Nero's Trials Of Apollo write up?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#306268: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:44:50 AM

My thoughts on the "Ben Drowned" thing. If "Ben Drowned" was set in the world of Legend of Zelda I would be comfortable calling it fanfiction. However, "Ben Drowned" is not set in Hyrule, it's set in our world, where the Legend of Zelda is a video game, and the Majora's Mask cartridge is effectively a macguffin that plays a role in the story. Calling it Zelda fanfiction because it features a Zelda video game that plays a role in the plot wouldn't be too different in my opinion than calling The Powerpuff Girls Zelda fanfiction because of this scene, or any media that references another fictional property as existing in their verse.

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Mar 20th 2022 at 10:45:47 AM

Just imagine something here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306269: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:47:02 AM

[up][up][up] Crow's okay with having it on both, so let's just do that.

Mir: The last I saw was this, which is probably too long and definitely needs to be a single paragraph. Pinging ~spyland2.

[up] I see where you're coming from; I just respectfully disagree (though do I love that scene [lol])

Edited by ACW on Mar 20th 2022 at 1:47:43 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#306270: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:48:12 AM

It also leaves out him helping nearly set off two apocyplses before this.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#306271: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:50:49 AM

I've given my reasoning on why I think crosslisting is a bad idea but it's a case I've made dozens of times before and people have agreed with me. I'm rather annoyed but at this point I'm pretty tired of debating this.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306272: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:50:52 AM

So somehow too long AND leaving stuff out.

Mir, if you know the work, and spyland doesn't reply, I think it's been long enough that someone else can do it.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#306273: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:54:57 AM

Here is the old ep. Anyone want to help with an entry?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#306274: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:58:14 AM

Given 43's opinion on the subject and the fact that he's way more experienced than I am, let's just settle with Web Original and end this discussion here. You have my final response, ACW.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306275: Mar 20th 2022 at 11:05:48 AM

Alright then, Web Original it is.

Come to think of it, it doesn't seem that much different than how that A Twisted Tale with Ursula and the Elder Gods isn't also on the Mythos page.

Edited by ACW on Mar 20th 2022 at 2:12:18 PM


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