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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#306126: Mar 19th 2022 at 10:47:09 AM

[tdown] to La Touche

Yes to Kuga and Minyak though

Edited by Powermaster201 on Mar 19th 2022 at 1:47:25 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#306127: Mar 19th 2022 at 10:48:57 AM

[tdown]touche

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#306128: Mar 19th 2022 at 10:49:41 AM

[tup] to Idore Delmira, Daichi Kuga, Orang Minyak/Oily Man, and King Gulver.

[tdown] to the Anti-Monitor video, the Lord Commander video (some of the background commentary kind of kills the mood), and Aloys La Touche.

@miraculous: Happy 24th birthday.

ImSpidey2 UAC Marine Reject from somewhere you most likely cannot pronounce (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Barbecuing
UAC Marine Reject
#306129: Mar 19th 2022 at 10:52:07 AM

@miraculous: Happy birthday! grin

Pardon for bringing this up, but was Elden Ring ever discussed in this thread? I noticed that its discussion date was over a week ago and nothing seemed to come up

That being said, I have no source.
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#306130: Mar 19th 2022 at 10:53:25 AM

[up]I think the person who reserved it asked for more time, as Elden Ring is a big game.

Also, [tup] to Idore.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#306131: Mar 19th 2022 at 10:53:38 AM

[up][up] Lighty will get to it, don't worry. It's a massive game and he needs time. I am looking forward to discussing it though.smile

Edited by emperors on Mar 19th 2022 at 1:53:50 PM

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#306132: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:02:40 AM

  • Black Cougar: Mayor Creeps moonlights as a crime boss who has dozens of neighborhood children kidnapped. Selling these kids as slaves to various clientele, Creeps also has anybody who witnesses the kidnappings killed, children included.

Yeah it's short, but that's all this asshole does.

It's Spooky Month!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#306133: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:03:02 AM

Late yes to Idore, no to La Touche

Yes, Elden Ring is a very big game and Lighty needs time.

Happy birthday, mir! Hope it's a great one!

Alrighty, got one from a source I wouldn't have expected when I downloaded it on a whim during a sale but eesh.

What's the work?

My Child Lebensborn is a Raising Sim game that features the player as a single parent in Norway following World War II, based on true stories of those who lived through such situations.

Having recently adopted a young, bright child—if male, Klaus; if female, Karin; I'll be referring to them as "K" henceforth as that is how the game does it at times—that was born out of an illicit affair between a German soldier and a Norwegian woman, the parent must balance their life as they try to work a factory job in order to support K, all while K experiences harsh, daily bullying from classmates at their school and even some stray adults thanks to their lineage as a half-German in a time where Germans are...not the most popular people.

Tearjerking and bleak as fuck, the game decides about 3/4ths of the way through that you ain't quite cynical enough yet, and adds in this bastard:

Who is Mr. Solheim? What has he done?

Though K faced bullies that they regales you with stories of through the first half of the game, they have their kind, cheerful, supportive teacher Mr. Berg to stand up for them and protect them when the bullies get a bit too rough on them.

Unfortunately for all, Berg is eventually replaced by the dreadful Sadist Teacher Mr. Solheim, a super strict authoritarian who at first seems to just be a bit dickish until K gets the highest score on a test in class. Refusing to believe that a "German kid" could get such a grade without cheating, he subjects K to verbal abuse in front of the whole class before beating them with a ruler.

Under Solheim's direct influence, the bullying of K ramps up even worse than before, notably first resulting in K getting tied up in the middle of a forest by a pack of bullies and left there for literal hours into the night before the parent finds them and brings them home. Then, though details aren't fully given on the specifics, we're definitively told that Solheim encouraged a pack of bullies to beat K into the ground and urinate on them as further humiliation and abuse.

When K stays home sick for several days following these godawful events, Solheim writes a letter to the sneering that K is "lazy and ignorant" and must serve in detention for several days as punishment for missing school. K begins serving out their detention alongside one other child, and seems to be suffering typical boredom and strain from Solheim's overbearing attitude.

Then K starts drawing very detailed, horrific images of a monster attacking them.

Then their happiness meter drops and stays in the heavy depression zone without budging.

Then they stop letting their parent them, dress them, or even touch them.

Oooohhhh noooooooo...

Since there weren't no way I was proposing a particular vile bully of a teacher without something extra to give 'em that shove, Solheim is revealed to be sexually abusing K during "detention", every indicator pointing towards it not even being particularly unique behavior for him: earlier in the game he's noted to be away from the school for a time because of unspoken issues, implied by hindsight to be connected to his vile treatment of children

Upon the parent discovering this heinous truth, it's the final straw for them growing tired of the constant wave of shit the town is shoveling at K, and the parent almost immediately uses money sent from K's birth father—tracked down after a whole game of researching—to flee the town with K, hoping to use the money to find better prospects and lives for them both.

Mitigating features?

Errr no. Solheim is never seen and isn't exactly richly characterized—indeed, the only two characters with proper, fully-realized designs seen onscreen are K themselves and Mr. Berg—but he's a vicious, racist Sadist Teacher who's revealed to be a pedophile on top of everything else, and his presence is felt heavily through the final bit of the game as the parent finds drawing depicting him as a monster with three arms (not a good sign if you know your child psychology) and in other demonic ways.

Heinousness?

I am taking full context into account, here: this is a Raising Sim, y'know, those games where you make sure a character, animal, etc. is properly fed, bathed, put to sleep, etc. I expect some troubles to show up in these, sure.

I do not expect to find a very realistic child molester in one, who spends a chunk of time dishing out other nasty abuse—from hitting K with a ruler to getting bullies to tie them in the middle of the woods or beat and piss on them—before graduating to full blown "pure evil" as described in-game, and while yes, it's "just one" confirmed victim in K despite implications of others, the abuse is so damn awful, repeated and varying in nastiness that I'm more than comfortable with saying it's past the baseline.

Other characters are racist dicks to K, for sure, ranging from another teacher who calls them a "German bastard", or a mean neighbor who slings slurs...but Solheim ramps the bullying up to new levels that reach the point of purely wicked, and then crosses a line that no one else even approaches in the game with the molestation.

Final Verdict?

Comfortable with him as a keeper, only one real victim but it is a shitton of abuse and for the very barebones medium, it's enough.

Edited by Ravok on Mar 19th 2022 at 11:04:05 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#306134: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:07:41 AM

[tup]Solheim

Thanks Guys

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#306136: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:11:56 AM

[tup] Solheim.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#306137: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:15:04 AM

No to Touche, yes to Solheim

Happy Birth Day to Mir.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#306138: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:16:49 AM

Yes to Solheim.

Also, two effortposts I wanna get up today. I'll get to the Kamen Rider movie after this since there was no contention with early discussion in this case...

The film is another Sergio Corbucci spaghetti Western called The Hellbenders, featuring an evil ex-Confederate named Jones as its Villain Protagonist. He doesn't count; awful as he is, he genuinely seems to believe in his cause (as awful as that is too) and despite some moments of abuse and threats, he truly does care for his sons, of which he has three. The first, Ben, is a good guy and doesn't keep, but the other two...

Who are Jeff and Nat?

Ben's cruel brothers, Jeff and Nat care nothing for their dad, their brother, each other, or the cause. Jeff is in it because he's a perverted, evil rapist; Nat's in it out of sheer greed.

Jones, Jeff and Nat debut massacring a Union convoy filled with dozens of soldiers, gunning down even the wounded so as to leave not one alive. Jeff and Nat then proceed to backstab and murder their two partners who helped them arrange the ambush. Robbing the convoy of one-million dollars, Jones intends to use this money to reignite the Confederacy.

Jeff and Nat tag along, but their homicidal selfishness soon starts to complicate their dad's plan. When they bring aboard a woman to act as Jones' "bride" to help fool Unionists whose territory their passing through, Jeff ends up stabbing her to death after she tries to run off. Learning nothing when Jones tricks another woman named Clare into joining as a replacement, Jeff tries to rape her the second they're alone, as Nat watches with an evil grin.

Oh, and Nat's not to be outdone; when he encounters a friendly, blind old war veteran who falls for their scam, Nat shoots the helpless old dude dead despite having literally no reason to—except the joy of murder, as evidenced by his Slasher Smile wide enough to eclipse Mars.

Jones is mortally injured by a thief toward the end, who also kills their horses, and he commands Jeff to go to the friendly Natives who live close by for new horses and medical aid. Jeff instead rapes and murders the daughter of the tribe's chief, and returns to cower behind his dying father when the whole tribe comes down on them demanding payment. This is the point Nat, after having clearly been planning it the whole movie, decides to betray everyone, abscond with the gold, leave his father for dead and gun down his own two brothers. Nat guns down both Jeff and Ben, taking a fatal bullet in return; Ben, thankfully, survives.

Any mitigating factors?

For Jones' Co-Dragons, they pointedly have none of his redeeming qualities. Jones abides by Pragmatic Villainy, has the odd Pet the Dog moment and dies in an Alas, Poor Villain moment, pathetically crawling toward a stream while muttering to his dead sons.

Jeff and Nat, on the other hand? Fuck all. It's Nat who shoots down any love for his family most obviously by the end when he tries to flat-out kill them all, but Jeff neglects getting his fatally-injured father medical aid so he can instead wet his willie. And when the Natives come down on him, Jeff cowersbehind his dying dad while lying his ass off that he really has no idea why they're after him.

Conclusion?

I'd say keep them.

[down] Did I not put in the title? Shit, lol, rectified

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 19th 2022 at 12:19:24 PM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#306139: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:18:02 AM

[tup] Jeff and Nat. Movie's called The Hellbenders btw.

It's Spooky Month!
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#306140: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:18:16 AM

Yes to Solheimand Jeff and Nat but No to Touche.

Really wish we could have put up Ivarr Ragnarsson up from AC Valhalla, but alas.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Mar 19th 2022 at 11:19:02 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#306141: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:19:15 AM

Yes to Jeff and Nat.

[up] I haven't played Valhalla. Does he fall into simillar situation as La Touche? Or redeeming qualities?

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#306142: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:19:23 AM

[tup]Jeff and Nat

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#306143: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:27:08 AM

He's more than heinous enough, and is probably one of the most evil characters in the franchise. That said, he shows some love for the other Sons of Ragnar.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306144: Mar 19th 2022 at 11:53:05 AM

Reluctant yes to Solheim (bad enough, but the fact we never see him is why it's reluctant).

Yes to the brothers. I give their father no points for believing in his cause (many villains do), but for caring about his sons I do.

Scraggle, you also have a GI Joe, don't you?

Reddish, should Mezalord and Gulver go under a Akumaizer 3 tree, a Toei Tokusatsu tree, or a Toei Universe tree?

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#306146: Mar 19th 2022 at 12:10:11 PM

[tup] to Mr. Solheim, Jeff, and Nat.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#306148: Mar 19th 2022 at 12:13:44 PM

Yes to Soloheim, Jeff, and Nat.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#306149: Mar 19th 2022 at 12:15:00 PM

[tup] Solheim, Jeff and Nat. [tdown] to La Touche.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#306150: Mar 19th 2022 at 12:19:18 PM

[tup] to Mr. Solheim, Jeff and Nat.

[tdown] to La Touche. Nasty fella, but alas his one stand out crime simply isn't enough in this franchise.

Edited by MGD107 on Mar 19th 2022 at 12:22:41 PM


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