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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#306051: Mar 18th 2022 at 5:06:16 PM

We only see him killing enemy pilots

This is misconstruing his rapsheet at best and totally, unfairly downplaying it at worst. IIRC we see Luciano gunning down everybody from combatants to non-combatants to a guy literally just begging for his life, and he gleefully notes he's in it to kill as much as he can across the length of Tokyo. This is also factoring he that he kills his own minions and he gleefully states he intends to rape Kallen.

I give this unnamed dude points for killing a baby and NGL he'd easily make it in most other settings, but Luciano's body count is ten times over this dude. "No" to him.

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 18th 2022 at 6:08:13 AM

Shad0wSmoke Since: Nov, 2013
#306052: Mar 18th 2022 at 5:06:25 PM

Oh hey, I remember taking a glance at the manga Kuga was from 2 years ago. It's a revenge manga so the villains are made to be as vile as possible in order to justify the MC torturing them. For the record, if I recall correctly, Kuga was not just a serial rapist, he was also a sex trafficker.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#306053: Mar 18th 2022 at 5:08:12 PM

Luciano stands out because he has a history as a frontline assault trooper slaughtering settlements the most recent of which we see is him gunning for Tokyo and it’s stated to have tens of millions living there. This information can also be found both in his entry and for prior discussions we’ve had, which I’d just like to say because with this query we’re now asking about all the Geass monsters.

Kuga is going to need some work before I vote. Kaz seems to have read it, so maybe he’d like to help with the EP and entry if he’s approved?

Edited by 43110 on Mar 18th 2022 at 8:09:53 AM

Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#306054: Mar 18th 2022 at 5:12:05 PM

I've watched his episodes, and I don't recall seeing him killing civilians onscreen. R2 16 has him throw a knife at Suzaku, who deflects it. R2 17 shows him killing several Black Knights during the Tokyo invasion, then he kills one more while taunting him. Then one of his own ships gets damaged, and he throws it at the Black Knights' command ship. Then he goes into battle in the next episode, restrains and tries to kill Zero, and has his fatal duel with Kallen. That's it as far as I remember. He may be implied to have taken part in purges at some point offscreen, but that doesn't carry as much weight as actually seeing it. There's nothing that suggested to me that he wanted to massacre everyone living in Tokyo.

Edited by Javertshark13 on Mar 18th 2022 at 8:15:22 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306055: Mar 18th 2022 at 5:27:15 PM

Okay, I can't speak on Geass, but as for that manga, Kuga DEFINITELY seems like a keeper now, along with Kyou.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#306056: Mar 18th 2022 at 5:47:51 PM

A PM was sent to the EP-er. I’m gonna read the manage tonight and if the original EP-er doesn’t respond, then I’ll take over and make a better, more full EP if that’s okay. I already discussed doing it as a collab with Kaz, and he agreed to take the Big Bad if no response is given.

Edited by MasterN on Mar 18th 2022 at 5:48:58 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#306057: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:05:01 PM

Does anybody particularly mind if I handle discussion on Kamen Rider OOO's tenth anniversary movie a week early? I'll stand back if we want, but discussion on that won't be long...essentially, I'm just gonna give a proper effortpost to a character who never got one but nevertheless has kept for years and, as of this recent movie, has gotten even nastier.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306058: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:11:57 PM

Go for it. I think I know who it is.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#306059: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:13:38 PM

[tup] to Warren Worth, King Cole, Mayor Creeps, and Hinata Hyuga.

Abstain on Daichi Kuga.

[tdown] to the Guard Commander. Cut Athalie.

[up][up] Don't mind an early discussion at all.

[down] Writeup looks good and [tup] to the King Cole quote.

Edited by DrUnknown on Mar 18th 2022 at 6:16:16 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#306060: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:14:31 PM

Cole writeup

  • The Mechanisms' Once Upon A Time (In Space): King Cole is the brutal, millenia-old ruler of a space empire spanning thousands of solar systems. Seeking a better way to conquer Cole his greatest general Rose Red kidnapped from her wedding to serve as the genetic basis for a Clone Army, killing almost all the attendees in the process. When Rose's sister Snow White starts a rebellion against him, Cole has all resistance suppressed brutally, having dissidents executed and sent to prison camps. When the prototype for the clone army revolts, Cole has her turned into a Living Battery for his throne world's defense grid, keeping her in a tortured, half conscious state. Side materials establish that Cole's Praetorian Guard are made of children painfully converted into cyborgs. As the final battle of the rebellion approaches, Cole commands all his soldiers to die to protect him. When cornered in his throne room, Cole has Snow killed and shoots a recently-freed Rose in her wife Cinder's arms, rendering his death and the rebellion's victory largely Pyrrhic.

166 words okay?

And a potential quote:

Old King Cole was not missold, of years he had a hundred score
The dark appliance of infernal science would give him millennia more
And he would watch as the suns burned out, collapsing from their core
Oh, never to forgive he would eternal live, his hands dyed red by gore
—"Old King Cole", Once Upon A Time (In Space), The Mechanisms

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#306061: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:18:20 PM

Again you’re downplaying Luciano… Tokyo is the latest in a string of assaults he’s noted to have taken part in, bodycount can be inferred and yes, the Britannian goal is an outright attack on Tokyo… Luciano being killed before he can start massacring civilians doesn’t take away the assault’s intent. This is going to be my final word on it because it doesn’t seem any prior discussion is being looked up and I don’t enjoy being used as an answer bank.

Edit: Oh yeah go for it Scraggle.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 18th 2022 at 9:18:44 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#306062: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:20:18 PM

So, do I have to create Sandbox.Music C Ms for ACW to swap out? or can I just put the quote and writeup in the drafts?

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306063: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:22:47 PM

The quote can go to Monster Quotes; the writeup can go to the Drafts.

Though FYI, it's Sandbox.Monster Music.

finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#306064: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:23:44 PM

Friday's here, so let's start this.

What is the work?

Triangle Strategy is a strategy RPG from the same team behind the Bravely Default series and Octopath Traveler. In the land of Norzelia, there are three nations: The Grand Duchy of Aesfrost, a frigid region famed for its iron and high social mobility, the Holy State of Hyzante, a desert region with the only source of salt in a land before refrigeration and known for treating its citizens equally provided you're not a heretic or a certain other group, and the Kingdom of Glenbrook, a moderate commerce hub which tends to find itself serving as mediators between its two neighbors. Thirty years prior to the start of the game, Aesfrost, in response to Hyzante's salt monopolization, teamed up with Glenbrook to invade Hyzante, who is aided by the independent House Wolffort, triggering the devastating Saltiron War. The war ends when Glenbrook's King Regna and Symon Wolffort, who have suffered less losses than their allies, decide to ally with each other instead to force and end with a war. Symon also swears fealty to Regna, becoming the most powerful noble in Glenbrook.

30 years later, as a sign of the growing peace, Symon's son Serenoa is betrothed to Frederica Aesfrost, the illegitimate daughter of Aesfrost's archduke during the Saltiron War and half-sister of its current archduke Gustadolph. Accompanying this is the elderly Symon retiring to get Serenoa a head start on governing and all three nations starting a joint mining venture run by Gustadolph's brilliant yet underappreciated cousin Dragan. Unfortunately, Dragan makes a massive find in the mines and attempts to blackmail Gustadolph into making him prime minister. Unbeknownst to almost everyone, Gustadolph has been planning another war all this time and uses the blackmail to make his cassus hello, assassinating Dragan and framing Glenbrook, invading and killing both King Regna and the crown prince. Thus, Norzelia is thrown into another war, and Serenoa must lead House Wolffort through the war, with the help of most notably his fiancee Frederica, his best friend who happens to be the younger prince Roland, and the brilliant House Wolffort steward Benedict, who aims to strengthen House Wolffort's position no matter the cost.

To get the elephant in the room out of the way: Gustadolph doesn't count, but not for the reasons you may think looking at the character page. Gustadolph is a firm believer in Pragmatic Villainy, and the Pet the Dog and Even Evil Has Standards entries all either have some ulterior motive, have him letting completely unimportant small things happen, or are simply because his siblings Erika and Thalas are such vile Hate Sinks that simply being not as nasty as them can easily be seen as Pet the Dog. Ultimately, the Golden Ending accurately portrays him as a sociopathic hypocrite who simply uses the idea of freedom to satiate his massive Control Freak tendencies and plans to rule the world with it. The problem is he's so pragmatic that he's not as bad as he could be - most notably, his invasion of Glenbrook has him expressly get through the capital city as quickly as possible to minimize civilian casualties as part of the charm offensive he needs to wage on the people after the conquest.

But the other big reason? Gustadolph is only one half of a Big Bad Ensemble, the other half utterly outdoing him in nastiness and ultimately being the main source of Norzelia's ills while Gustadolph, despite being fully independent, is still a symptom.

Who is he?

Idore Delmira is Hyzante's Minister of Religion, second in command of the Saintly Seven and the only one permitted to hear the voice of their leader the Hierophant. He held this position at the end of the Saltiron War, where as the previous Hierophant was dying he prayed to the Goddess of Salt to end the war. His prayers going unanswered, combined with the endless bickering among the Saintly Seven over who would replace the Hierophant, completely destroyed his faith in both the Goddess and humanity, replaced with a desire for absolute control and the belief that all humanity is stupid except for him. To that end, he enlisted the aid of prominent scientist Lyla Viscraft to solve the Hierophant problem: She created a pseudo-living puppet that would remain hidden from view to take the role, making Idore The Man in Front of the Man as the true ruler of Hyzante. As for the Hierophant's fuel source... this calls for a bit of a history lesson.

Norzelia used to be completely submerged under an ocean. When it dried up, the only remaining salt water was in the lands that would become Hyzante, referred to as the Source. However, a race from the land of Centralia, the Roselle, arrived with the knowledge of salt deposits under the Earth - which, yes, is what Dragan found in the mines that kickstarted the second war. The leaders of Hyzante, knowing this would doom their nation and religion, responded to the Roselle's kindness by brutally enslaving them as forced labor to gather salt for them in the Source while gaslighting the Roselle over generations to believe they tried to steal salt from Hyzante and only enslavement would redeem them. This proved so successful that the truth died with that generation, as even later incarnations of the Sainty Seven partially believe this story and only a line of Roselle secretly keeping the true history, as well as, eventually, Idore, know the entire truth. Idore naturally continues this with the aid of the Minister of Salt, but he also takes the corpses and gives them to Lyla, now Minister of Medicine, to convert into Aelfric. This purple flame energy made from slave corpses is what fuels the Hierophant.

With his mass deception and enslavement based on a religion he doesn't even believe in, Idore seeks to use the salt monopoly to break Aesfrost by charging them exorbitant prices and driving most of the nation into poverty. As Gustadolph's war goes on, Serenoa eventually becomes a member of the Saintly Seven himself by exposing the corruption of the aforementioned Minister of Salt Sorsley Ende, at which point Idore demands he prove his loyalty by handing over the Roselle refugees in his demesne to be enslaved and, in order to pressure him, hires unscrupulous fallen Glenbrook noble Silvio Telliore to speed the process up by provoking the refugees. Ultimately, Serenoa discovers the truth behind the history of Roselle and the salt by discovering the records of the last Roselle historian (who conveniently enough is Frederica's mother) and the salt deposits Dragan found. At this point, the route split happens, and Idore's actions vary:

  • In Frederica's route, House Wolffort frees the Roselle and escapes for Centralia, only for Idore to catch up at the last minute as the Final Boss. When the Roselle refuse to return, he decides to slaughter them all, with letting even one of them die being a fail condition. When defeated, Idore reveals he's laced himself with explosive Aelfric and attempts to take everyone with him out of spite, only for Serenoa to sacrifice himself to hold Idore back and ensure no one else dies.
  • In Benedict's route, after the corruption of his vice-minister Tenebris Mistel is exposed, Idore reveals the Hierophant's true nature to him and orders him to kill every last one allied Glenbrook-Aesfrosti forces with it or Idore will execute him. He uses the fight to flee and in the epilogue finds Roland, now a monk disgusted at how bad conditions for the poor now are, building a resistance movement against King Serenoa - long story short, Serenoa was actually Regna's bastard son - and wordlessly offers assistance.
  • In Roland's route, Idore wins. Roland and Serenoa fully submit to Hyzante just to end the war, get revenge on Aesfrost, and bring a lasting peace. Idore never reveals his true colors or what the Hierophant really is, but does take advantage of his absolute power to throw dissidents into slavery at the Source with the Roselle.
  • In the Golden Ending, Idore reveals his backstory and powers himself up with Aelfric to become the immortal ruler of all Norzelia, becoming Demigod Idore as the True Final Boss. After losing, Serenoa offers him a chance at redemption, only for Idore to activate explosive Aelfric he laced the palace with to take the party with him, promising to see Serenoa in hell with his last breath. He thankfully fails and Norzelia becomes a far better place without Idore and Hyzante in the epilogue.

Heinousness?

Easily makes it. No one comes close to being as bad as Idore. He didn't start the slavery, but he gleefully continues it and is willing to expand it despite not even believing in the religion that justifies it. He's the ultimate source of all the suffering in present day Norzelia, with even Gustadolph being a symptom of his actions.

Mitigating factors?

Nope. Idore's backstory is sympathetic, but his response goes far beyond reason; Idore is a Control Freak out for absolute power and abuses his people's desire for a fair society and genuine faith to satisfy it. The Golden Ending really sells this; he constantly refers to everyone else as complete morons who can only function under his rule, and his reactions to losing on both it and Frederica's route is motivated purely by spite. As for joining Roland in Benedict's ending? Idore may not have any lines in that scene, but his words and actions in every other ending make it unthinkable he shares Roland's good intentions, but rather is helping him just to get back at Serenoa. For all his posturing, Idore is a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist par excellence.

Verdict?

Solid [tup]. There's one more candidate to propose from the game, which will be handled by Scraggle.

Also very excited to see the OOO post.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#306065: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:28:04 PM

Easy fucking yes to Idore. You killed it, Finalsurvivor. The amount of death this man is responsible for is insane and not one single route ever even begins to approach giving him a redeeming quality.

I'll handle the second, Sorsley Ende, soon. He's easily the most despicable secondary villain in the game and the only one I remember without any real redeeming traits (aside from maybe Erika, who aside from sharing all her screentime with her twin Thalas—who does care about her—aren't bad enough).

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#306067: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:31:15 PM

[tup] to Idore

Stuff in the sandbox, I assume we're alphabetizing by band/artist name?

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#306070: Mar 18th 2022 at 6:48:31 PM

I'll read the EP tomorrow, but [up][up][up] yes.

EDIT: Or now [lol] Yes to the Sinister Minister.

Edited by ACW on Mar 18th 2022 at 9:57:37 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#306072: Mar 18th 2022 at 7:05:28 PM

I have a new video to submit one of the Anti-Monitor from GL: TAS.

Its only going to be from 0:44 to 2:01.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#306073: Mar 18th 2022 at 7:17:25 PM

I watched 0:44 to 2:01 of that video, I don't know what the fuck is going on without context. He makes a planet industrialize itself?

Hard "no" to that video.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#306074: Mar 18th 2022 at 7:19:51 PM

[tup] Idore, Cole quote

[tdown] Anti Monitor video

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#306075: Mar 18th 2022 at 7:23:33 PM

Yeah rewatching the video doesn't seem to work as well as I thought it could, oh well.


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