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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#305626: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:02:47 AM

Very much support this Dio's rewrite

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#305627: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:07:53 AM

[tup] Dio rewrite

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#305629: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:11:36 AM

Yes to Dio's rewrite.

It's time for more Marvel! This is from their Epic Illustrated anthology, which collected fantasy and sci-fi stories during the 80s. This one comes from Chris Claremont's Marada the She-Wolf, a kinda Red Sonja pastiche debuting in issue #10, complete with a Kulan Gath expy.

What have Simyon Karashnur and Y'Garon done?

Simyon is a Robert Howard-style evil sorcerer who rules on high from a tower in Damascus. A human-sacrificing sadist, Simyon has his own corpse-strewn torture chamber in which he tortures people to death as a hobby, regularly terrorizing the innocent people down below the tower with the screams of his victims. He's introduced doing just this, leaving his latest victim to the whims of his torturer after failing to get information from him.

His demon master, Y'Garon, who feeds upon these sacrifices, is basically a rape demon. Marada's tragic backstory is that Simyon kidnapped her and tried to make her Y'Garon's sex slave, watching as she was raped and tortured to near-death by Y'Garon. Simyon and Y'Garon lure Marada back to them by kidnapping her innocent friend, threatening the same fate for her; Y'Garon gloats he'll rape Marada once again before making her watch as he rapes her friend next. Thankfully, Marada kills them both dead.

Any mitigating factors?

Yeah, not many for the demon rape duo.

Conclusion?

Keepers.

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 15th 2022 at 12:16:30 PM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#305631: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:18:11 AM

Simyon and Y'Garon sound like pretty complex characters, but ultimately like they land!

@ACW: Brackets wasn't exactly the problem, I just had forgotten to remove some words lol but anyway fixed and added to drafts.

Edited by Ravok on Mar 15th 2022 at 11:18:32 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#305634: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:39:07 AM

Yes to those two. Looks like they're Earth-616.

Also, for DIO, I made a few changes:

This is one time when I don't like the limits, as there are easily 5-10 more potholes I could add [lol]

Should JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Phantom Blood be potholed somewhere, like:

Edited by ACW on Mar 15th 2022 at 2:47:16 PM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#305635: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:46:43 AM

[tup] to Simyon and Y'garon

Edited by Libraryseraph on Mar 15th 2022 at 2:46:51 PM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#305636: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:48:11 AM

[tup] Rape demon duo

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#305638: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:55:26 AM

After re-evaluating the entries for Diethard Reid and Alicia Lohmeyer, I have strong reservations about both. Their entries come off much more like Hate Sink writeups, as a lot of what they focus on is minor and doesn't come off as that heinous given the show's standards.

It's worth noting that Diethard's portrayal in the anime tends to be all over the place, even within the same scene, like in Turn 19 where he's vocally against betraying Zero one minute, then gloating over his impending execution the next. That aside, his entry reads very oddly.

Diethard manipulating media coverage in the Black Knights' favor isn't portrayed as a bad thing, since the Black Knights are meant to be rooted for, and Lelouch brought him on board so he would do exactly that. The fact that he seems indifferent about civilian casualties shows that he's callous, but he does not directly do anything to cause their deaths. He doesn't participate in any battles himself and doesn't encourage the Black Knights to kill civilians, he's just apathetic about it. In the case of the SAZ massacre, Lelouch was also willing to exploit the event in order to spark rebellion, and Diethard wasn't broadcasting the footage in order to cause civilian deaths, but because he thought Zero wanted him to do it.

His "pushing for a global war" happens when the UFN adopts its resolution authorizing the use of force in liberating Japan, which everyone present is in favor of. The extent of Diethard's comments is him briefly stating that this gives them a "just cause for war." Tohdoh does question the remark, but the Britannians had been hostile to the UFN from the moment it was announced, and were eager to crush them, so it's arguably not wrong to support going to war with Britannia in those circumstances. At worst, Diethard being eager for war again shows that he's callous, but his statement has no impact on the plot, and after that scene, no attention is drawn to it.

Now, defecting to Schneizel and being willing to let Nunnally die is clearly intended as his Moral Event Horizon, but the same problem persists. Schneizel is the one nuking cities completely on his own initiative, and Diethard is just standing there watching, and does nothing to influence what's happening. He could have been removed from these scenes entirely, and it would have changed nothing. It's worth noting that the rest of the Black Knights also agree to fight for Schneizel in the final battle, which makes them equally complicit in his plans, and they are treated sympathetically for it.

There's also a few moments where he shows redeeming traits, such as Stage 20 where he's in favor of the Black Knights interceding in the battle, because he says they must show that protecting the people is their top priority. He also shows some concern for Kaguya during the Black Rebellion when he advises her not to risk her safety by coming to see the battle.

As for Lohmeyer, she mostly just comes off as an extreme jerk, and her willingness to massacre the Zero supporters is the only thing she does that really passes the baseline. This clearly shows that she's a Hate Sink, but it's immediately thwarted when Suzaku refuses and talks her down. The crowd is allowed to be exiled as they wanted, and then it's forgotten. Again, she could have been removed entirely from the scene and almost nothing would have been lost. A number of other characters, such as Villetta and Guilford, were also ordering the massacre, and Gino was willing to do it if Suzaku said so, so it wasn't just her either.

I think in both cases, the characters may be intended as Hate Sinks, but they don't do nearly enough on their own to pass the heinous standard, so I'd be in favor of cutting both.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#305639: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:11:46 PM

Someone, i was thinking about and decided to propose

What is the Work?

Darkest of Days is a FPS from 2009, which follows Alexander Morris, as he is saved from the Indians by the soldiers from the future and is recruted by KronoTek, as they has him and his new partner, Dexter, go to different periods in time, mostly World War I and Civil War, and try to "correct" the timeline, as someone has been disturbing it and affecting the fates of numerous important people. As the game goes, you face some revelations and hints that indicate that KronoTek aren't as benevolent and well inteioned as they appear.

You can watch the walkthrough of the entire game here.

My candidate is leader of KronoTek from the future - Mother.

Who is Mother?

The leader of KronoTek from the future, MOTHER acts as a "mission control" during nearly the whole game, appearing reasonable and well intentioned as she gives Morris and Dexter missions to rescue Welsh (in Civil War era) and Petrovich (in World War I era), as these two important figures are endangered by the opposing group to KronoTek, called "The Opposition", who goes back in time to try to kill them.

After numerous missions, the duo finally managed to save the two and then Mother given them a mission to track down the founder of KronoTek, Doctor Koell, who was in Pompeii, on August 25, 79 AD, the day Mount Vesuvius erupted and buried the Roman town. After fighting through "The Opposition" and Roman soldiers, Morris and Dexter found Koell and teleported him to their base. As excited Mother tells him that "she will see him shortly" as they have "much to discuss", after which she "logges off" and then the leader of "The Opposition" appears and kills Koell, revealing that Welsh and Petrovich, whom Morris and Dexter saved in the past, were the ancestors of scientists who invented a DNA sequencer that can target the genomes defining racial identity and that this DNA sequencer was stolen and used by less talented Middle Eastern scientists to create a virus that targeted people of European descent, with 2 billion dying as a result.

As this reveals that Mother tried to "correct" history so that this mass murder and attempt at genocide would happen and came to pass and "The Opposition" tried to prevent that. The game ends on a giant Sequel Hook, as the leader of "The Opposition" offers the duo to join him.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

None that appears, as The Reveal showcased that all apparent benevolence and well intentions were faked, as both heroes and Koell would have died in the future regardless and Dexter even mentions that she sometimes offers agents, who were retrieved from the past, to return them to their timelines if they want, but considering that all of them were retrieved when they were about to die, she returns them to the exact moment where KronoTek rescued them, aka seconds before they die.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Tries to make it so that billions of humans would die in the future and that a horrible bio weapon would came to pass (we see several photos and newspapers from the future that depict the event), i think she stands out. In addition to sending both Morris and Dexter into the time period, where they are forced to kill a lot of soldiers on both sides of the war.

Final Verdict?

What do you think?

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#305640: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:11:49 PM

No, I think Dio should just have a standalone entry ala Palpatine, we don't specify "Empire Strikes Back: Palpatine, who debuts here", and I don't see why Dio can't just have Phantom Blood potholed in his entry exactly where I put it around the "abusive father" part and made a standalone at the top of the page.

I'll let 43 tackle Diethard counters but I absolutely agree that Diethard and Lohmeyer both still Keep, it doesn't matter if Lohmeyer's plan was thwarted, she explicilty tries to massacre a million damn people out of xenophobic hatred, that's more than bad enough by the standards of the series and even if you don't think it makes her more than a Hate Sink, it doesn't change that it's a horrific attempted crime and she nearly succeeds, on top of other mass oppression and nasty murders ordered by her.

Edited by Ravok on Mar 15th 2022 at 12:12:51 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#305641: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:13:08 PM

Yes to the Demon Rape Duo, Mother, and the DIO re-write.

Edited by YobabyColin on Mar 15th 2022 at 3:18:17 PM

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#305642: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:19:06 PM

[tup] Mother

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#305643: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:21:39 PM

Simyon and Y'Garon and Mother [tup]

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#305644: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:27:49 PM

Yes to Angela, Ragyo, Lord Dionysus, Simyon, Y'Garon, and Mother.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#305645: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:28:56 PM

[tup] to Simyon Karashnur, Y'Garon, and Mother

Keep the Gease duo

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#305646: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:31:46 PM

Oh, whoops, I skipped over that pothole; I must've thought it was Patricide or something. My bad.

The other two changes work though?

Sure to Mother.

Edited by ACW on Mar 15th 2022 at 3:32:47 PM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#305647: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:38:30 PM

Yes to the demons and Mother.

How posthumous can a character be to count? I have this one tyrant lady who doesn't get much focus, but is universally agreed to be the worst person ever; is indirectly responsible for the current state of the setting's society; and has enough details about her reign provided to form a cohesive narrative.

... Unfortunately, she's also been dead for at least seven hundred years. Is that too much of a disconnect, or would I be gucci?

SailorVenus372 Since: Nov, 2019 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#305649: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:42:41 PM

@Emerald: Considering recent rule changes, so long as she's given sufficient character descriptions from other characters/narrative and her crimes are fully elaborated on, she'd be good to discuss.

@ACW: Yup, both look great, thanks as always for the hard work!

Actually gonna tackle the Geass ones deeper right now, but lemme preface by saying that starting your cut argument off with "their entries come off much more like Hate Sink writeups, as a lot of what they focus on is minor and doesn't come off as that heinous given the show's standards...(they) read oddly" is not a good jumping off point at all and reads as more than a bit insulting to the people who made the entries, acting like they don't know how to make CM entries.

Now, Diethard...is way more of an active part of the crimes than you're attributing him. He's actively encouraging, filming and cheering on as much nastiness as possible so he can film it and whip the conflict into worse and worse conditions, and I do not think the argument of "he could have been removed and nothing changed" is at all accurate when it's his negative, Token Evil Teammate actions, persona and influence that further spur people into destructive activities. He's got his hands in a lot of deaths, even if he's rarely personally ordering anything he's still supporting and pushing others towards the most violent outlooks possible except when Pragmatic Villainy is necessary.

And Lohmeyer is very, very clearly the ringleader of the attempted slaughter of a million Japanese. Yes, others are "willing" to go along with it or supportive, but Lohmeyer is the one on the scene, explicitly said to be in charge of the proceedings, and is the one who screams for the slaughter and tries to personally kick it off. There's really nothing more to be said, she nearly kick-starts one of the worst massacres in the series on a whim and spends the rest of her screentime doing things that are still notable, like actively pushing to further oppress and harm the Japanese or ordering the murder of a POW out of petty spite.

Edited by Ravok on Mar 15th 2022 at 12:44:15 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#305650: Mar 15th 2022 at 12:43:07 PM

One thing I will say about Diethard from what I know he is the Token Evil Teammate of the heroes so while he is technically working for the side of the heroes he doesn't have the same noble goals as the other characters. I will leave the more thorough counters to 43 though.


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