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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30426: Sep 10th 2014 at 3:52:56 PM

RE: Scraggle

Seriousness: Only Pit and to a lesser extent treats him as a genocidal creep, even then they still joke with him constantly. Palutena is against more for his crimes against the gods and lightly turns him down when Hades flirts with her, Virdi finds his eating gross in a childish manner, and calls him awesome at one point. Most characters treat him as an annoyance or even friend in a few cases. Even in the final battle, they still joke with him.

Bad Boss: How is recreating Medusa, allowing her to contain her goal of revenge treating her as a puppet. Keep in mind, that was Medusa was doing BEFORE he revived her. He only killed Medusa, after she openly betrayed him, and punched his head clean off. Pandora, he flirts and jokes with. Thanatos, Hades also is friendly with. Both are also loyal to Hades.

With a few exceptions such as Reapers, Hades basic minions seem to have no sentience anyway. He jokes with Thanatos, and Pandora all the time, even flirting with the latter. Thanatos and Pandora joke back with Hades.

Actually its said by sources as their idol info that Reapers are natural to the underworld and its their job to carry souls to the underworld. Unlike many of the other monsters, they're a natural part of the Underworld, and are Always Chaotic Evil.

Moral Agenda: He's sentient, but part of the Underworld which is Always Chaotic E Vil even the creatures he doesn't create such as the reapers. The underworld has ALWAYS been evil in the Kid Icarus seris. Basically he's a Satan character.

Onscreen villainy: Its there, but not in any detail. We get a mention that Hades started a rumor, static dots representing a crows meeting up, without any shots of the war. Contrast with Viridi directly dropping a Nuke on that same dot crowd, and Medusa turning fleeing citizens to stone and gruesomely shattering them. Considering the humor of the game, I wouldn't be surprised if the sequel revealed as a joke that Hades was telling the truth.

Goal: Viridi admits to Hades at one point that her bomb was made unnaturally, and we are never shown any of the supposed wrongs, she claims humanity does. Back to Medusa, we see in the animated special, Medusa was killing humans for fun in her goddess days, long before she was banished to the Underworld., and met up with Hades.

How is Goddess Medusa, of her own free will, and with no motive other then For the Evulz destroying cities, and killing people in detail any better then Hades manipulating people into war so he can gain power. Honestly, Medusa's actions seem worse, as she didn't even have anything to gain, and we got a good view of it.

RE: Sterok

  • A lot of characters provoked surprise from the protagonists.
  • Viridi immediately nukes a mass of humans using an unnaturally created bomb, and laughs about it. Medusa is shown in her goddess days to kill humans onscreen simply For the Evulz.

  • Pit is the only person to oppose it on moral grounds, even then Hades asks him why its wrong, Pit can't think of any reason.

  • Viridi declares him worse for the wrong reasons(him being gross)

  • And yet that didn't stop Palutena from allying with Hades, and joking with him.

its noted reapers are the natural soul carriers of the Underworld, and that they also like to devour souls for power.

No one is really that surprised about the underworld being evil as its ALWAYS been evil in the Kid Icarus series.

A mention by Pit about Hades abusing his power doesn't mean the Underwold isn't naturally evil.

Pit doesn't just banter with Hades, they crack mutual jokes all the time, such as Pit remarking if Hades eats junk food, and that his heart is cute. Even in the climatic battle, Hades and Pit crack mutual jokes together.

edited 10th Sep '14 4:03:06 PM by Monsund

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#30427: Sep 10th 2014 at 3:54:12 PM

Except Hades sticks out in a world full of Always Chaotic Evil creatures and beasts. Mostly, and I guess Hades would be worse than Medusa, because he was planning death on a global scale.

edited 10th Sep '14 3:55:07 PM by AustinDR

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30429: Sep 10th 2014 at 3:57:22 PM

[up][up]

Medusa's seen destroying cities on a global scale in full detail in her goddess days.

How are Hades actions any worse then Medusas?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#30430: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:01:03 PM

Because she's not a CM.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30431: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:02:09 PM

[up]

Why is she not a CM when her actions are exactly the same as Hades, if not worse because it was For the Evulz, and she did it when she was part of the Good Angel Land.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#30432: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:03:07 PM

Did this Medusa character do all of this onscreen?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#30434: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:04:07 PM

Because it's implied that Hades, again, has been using her this whole time. He's mentioned as the true leader of the Underworld, if this is so, this means he was behind Medusa even in the original. Medusa's actions were all in favor of Hades.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30435: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:05:53 PM

[up]

Medusa hadn't even been to the Underworld, or met Hades at that point.

She was a goddess in Angel Land at the point of where she was killing humans for fun as seen in that video.

edited 10th Sep '14 4:06:27 PM by Monsund

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#30436: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:06:57 PM

Sorry, Austin, but that's a really poor answer. If not an entire non-answer.

If their actions are pretty much the same, they should be treated equally. We're determining if Hades can be a CM. You can't use him being one as an excuse here.

Also, implications aren't strong facts. That's a subjective guess. We don't know for sure Hades was using Medusa. It's just suggested at best. Which only makes my vote later on all the more specific.


I'm voting a firm [tdown] on Hades. His actions are not worse than Medusa here. Uprising itself pretty much has no fourth wall, so the characters are well aware of everything Hades does. If he's laughing along with the heroes and others overall, it's just an act. The setting itself doesn't make sense for me to give a yes. It's too non-serious in any way in the end.

Also, definite no to Shadow Queen. No onscreen acts that are heinous enough, and we don't see the results of her offscreen actions at all. In addition, she's pretty much a GDV.

edited 10th Sep '14 4:08:54 PM by Irene

Shadow?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#30437: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:07:09 PM

[up][up][up][up]Not from the game though (though still canon).

edited 10th Sep '14 4:07:28 PM by ACW

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#30438: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:08:00 PM

I don't think that's what Scraggle meant. Essentially he meant that he had been pulling the strings despite the fact that Medusa herself had never been to the Underworld.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#30439: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:08:06 PM

So her one action before she was banished to the Underworld was of her own accord. Hades is still a far bigger threat in terms of both evil and overall position. Even when you're looking at Medusa when Hades wasn't controlling her, she still fails the heinous standard.

What's the overall thumbs down, thumbs up count for Hades? I think we can safely judge the Shadow Queen a perma-cut: only one person is supporting her.

edited 10th Sep '14 4:09:53 PM by Scraggle

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30440: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:10:18 PM

[up][up]

Nowhere is it implied that Hades was pulling the screens in Medusa's goddess days.

[up]

How does she fail the heinous standard when her actions are the exact same as Hades, except For the Evulz, onscreen in detail, and when she was part of the Always Lawful Good Angel Land(with the exception of her)?

By comparison, Hades was part of the Always Chaotic Evil Underworld.

edited 10th Sep '14 4:11:19 PM by Monsund

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#30441: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:10:22 PM

I'd have to agree with Scraggle here.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#30442: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:12:20 PM

Eh, it's one thing if Medusa and Hades did all that in the same game, but an animated short depicting Medusa's worst actions while the 3DS Kid Icarus game depicts Hades' worst actions makes me less inclined to agree with you.I find myself more convinced by Scraggle and Sterok. Keeping my [tup]Hades vote.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30443: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:12:45 PM

[up][up]

How so?

What line says Hades was manipulating back then.

Its said they met AFTER Medusa was banished from Angel Land, and basically borrowed his Underworld army.

[up]

The animated short is officially part of the game canon. The short released at the same time as uprising, with heavy input by the Uprising team. The same events are also mentioned in the game backstory

That and Hades actions ingame aren't shown in any real detail.

edited 10th Sep '14 4:15:25 PM by Monsund

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#30444: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:18:14 PM

The Always Chaotic Evil argument is failing you, because that's clearly shown not to affect Hades' morality one bit.

Medusa's one action while she wasn't affiliated with the Underworld does not make her at Hades' level. One can see that as soon as she was banished, Hades was manipulating the strings: every action she did then can be tied to him. Hades is the Man Behind the Man and Medusa's just his puppet. Even taking that out, Hades starts wars for his own benefit to slaughter what's seen to be at least thousands of humans, then takes their souls, and grotesquely abominates them to create his disposable Underworld troops, then sending them out to inevitably be killed. Never mind the fact that he also sometimes eats the souls to kill them permanently. Also, when Medusa pulled off a semi-Heel–Face Turn, Hades killed her for it.

In sheer body count compared to Medusa, think about this. Medusa was never shown attacking anything more than a city. It takes several souls just to make one Underworld troop. When you think about the thousands of Underworld troops you indiscriminately mow down in Uprising, it means that Hades, indirectly or not, is responsible for the deaths and harvesting of at least hundreds of millions of humans.

And even if it's indirect, it can still be tied back to Hades via manipulation. Chessmasters can still be Complete Monsters.

This clip right here is what cements Hades as a Monster in my opinion: http://youtu.be/lGcijujgd1o?t=7m17s

edited 10th Sep '14 4:22:42 PM by Scraggle

Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#30445: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:25:26 PM

There's no implication that Hades manipulated Medusa during the early days. The actions of Medusa during the first game or the animated short mean nothing for Hades. Uprising however is a little tricky. He's the one that revived her (off-screen), but we don't know if he was controlling her or if he just set her loose. Thanatos implied he was watching over her for Hades, and Medusa didn't even know why she was back, so I'd say he wasn't controlling her. He did revive her with the intent of having her invade the earth though, so I'm not sure if her actions can be completely discarded.

Personally, I say ignore anything Medusa did except for matters pertaining to heinous levels. There isn't enough proof that he controlled or commanded her. I also say it doesn't matter, because his own actions are what push him over. His forces attacking humans doesn't mean much aside from making sure he's on everyone else's level (and we did see his army attacking a human city in chapter 18). The souls deal is what pushes him over. Taking souls meant for reincarnation and using them for his own greed puts him over anything the other gods did. It is a little hard to quantify I'll admit, but not hard enough that it can be ignored or thrown out.

Can anyone explain why breaking the fourth wall would disqualify him? It doesn't speak to any moral standards, and actions that hurt everyone are taken seriously. Seems irrelevant to me.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30446: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:27:46 PM

[up]

How so. Everything indicates the Underworld is Always Chaotic Evil, even the natural soul collectors are evil soul eating devils.

Mass murder on a global scale for no reason other then For the Evulz ,and when she was one of the two highest ranking beings around in Angel Land, doesn't count as heinous, why?

Hades didn't even force the humans to fight or directly kill them like Medusa, just gave them a push.

Medusa didn't pull a Heel–Face Turn, she just wanted revenge on Hades as she said herself.

Actually its implied, Medusa had done attacks on humans more then once requiring her banishment.

Most of those chesssmasters aren't matched in heinous by other characters in addition to being laughably Evil.

Keep in mind, we're shown an image of a Reaper eating a soul when its mentioned its their job to bring souls to the Underworld in addition to the Idol mentioning they devour souls.

Even in that clip, Viridi mentions her belief that the weak should be consumed.

edited 10th Sep '14 4:38:19 PM by Monsund

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#30447: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:28:21 PM

[up][up][up]Of course they can. As can Magnificent/Manipulative Bastards. Palpatine says hello.

edited 10th Sep '14 4:28:31 PM by ACW

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30448: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:30:21 PM

[up]

Palpatine is unmatched in evil by every other character in Star Wars, is treated seriously, and is seen committing direct acts of evil.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#30449: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:33:14 PM

Said other attacks requiring Medusa's banishment weren't shown onscreen, aside from Medusa tormenting that one city. Even then, Medusa, even when she wasn't being used by Hades, still doesn't match Hades for his overall body count and of course, what he's doing with all those souls.

Keep in mind that "push" was meant to start the war.

Hence why I added the little bit "semi." As soon as Hades kills her, it's cementing his presence as a force much, much worse than even Medusa in her glory days.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#30450: Sep 10th 2014 at 4:37:09 PM

[up]

That attack is shown though, while none of Hades actions are really shown except for the soul eating. Even then its not clarified what soul eating does, they could become the monsters in his stomach for all we know! Reapers eat souls as well, even when Viridi is explaining that they've always been in charge of ferrying souls.

It was a push, but all he did was spread rumors about a wish seed. He didn't force anyone to go to war, by possessing them or anything directly.

By that logic for Medusa though, Hades fighting the Aurum makes him a good guy.


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