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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#301701: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:01:00 PM

Just gonna [tdown] Legion and leave it at that, the mod is still one big reference to a very silly (albeit dark) absurdist meme based on a 2010 meme icon.

Like Rav said, the fact that you unironically kill him in a rap battle really doesn't help.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 15th 2022 at 12:03:20 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#301702: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:03:01 PM

I'll just abstain on Legion for the sake of caution.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#301703: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:04:57 PM

You know what, yeah I'm [tdown] Legion too for the same reasons stated above.

[down][down] [nja]

Edited by Powermaster201 on Feb 15th 2022 at 3:09:27 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#301704: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:07:40 PM

I think it's a bad idea personally to downvote a character just based on what the work is based on, that has never been a precedent to downvote, someone, a lot of works have rather weird origins.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#301705: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:08:51 PM

Not really when you have the character being based on a meme and being killed by a rap battle of all things, that leaves little room to doubt. I mean that's the reason candidates like SMG0 were rejected due to the nature of the work.

Edited by AustinDR on Feb 15th 2022 at 12:10:02 PM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#301706: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:10:43 PM

If you don't agree with a Downvote you don't agree, it doesn't mean its a 'Bad Idea'. The fact its based on a Meme is obviously gonna raise Eyebrows on if this is meant to be taken seriously or not, and there's what Ravok said. That isn't to say he is a Definite No but there are Valid reasons to question this

Bow to the Prototype
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#301707: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:11:27 PM

SMG0 was primarily rejected for being in an inherently comedic work this is just something based on something comedic.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#301708: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:11:50 PM

yeah, [tdown] to Legion. I think "literal trollface" is a good place to draw the line

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#301709: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:14:50 PM

Ordeaux don't police votes.

I'll look into this later but tbh it seems another case people wanna get really tooth and nail about fighting for when every indication is there's ample room to be leery.

Edited by 43110 on Feb 15th 2022 at 8:17:04 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#301710: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:17:41 PM

I wasn't trying to police votes I am voicing my opinion. If people want to downvote not much I can do but I do feel I need to point out it has never been a precedent to downvote something due to what it is based on we have always judged the work on its own.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#301711: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:20:16 PM

So Neon Geneis Evengalion, Shin Godzilla, Shin Kamen Rider and Shin Ultraman are doing a crossover event. Anyone want to split? 43110? Scraggle?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#301712: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:21:22 PM

Wait, isn't the first one anime?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#301713: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:22:20 PM

Their all made by the same guy. It's apparently a shared universe of sorts .

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#301714: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:22:43 PM

We have scrutinized certain works thanks to the nature of what they are, particularly in regards to how much something is meant to be taken seriously. That is very much a precedent.

Again, that doesn't mean he is a Definite No, we have cases of extreme Bathos where the Premise is legit ridiculous but is taken Seriously, like that Mel Gibson Santa flick, but this is worth talking about and if people find it questionable there is more then enough reason to.

Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 15th 2022 at 12:24:39 PM

Bow to the Prototype
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#301715: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:23:07 PM

@Ordeaux: You see that everyone since Ravok spoke up has been referencing events inside the work and not just what it’s based on, right? Cause it feels like you’re calling out the point that people aren’t actually acting on.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 15th 2022 at 3:23:22 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#301716: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:24:26 PM

The only thing being talked about inside the work is the rap battle which is just how FNF works and isn't something inherently comedic.

Bruhmpex Space Chameleon from Where do you think? Since: Jan, 2020 Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
Space Chameleon
#301717: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:28:02 PM

Might be worth noting that the rap battle against Legion is a forced loss, and the actual way he's defeated is a lot less silly.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#301718: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:32:50 PM

The issue here is that yes, the work tries to play it seriously enough, and yes it does have a semi-genuine plot, characters, Creepypasta-esque "scariness" going on, but it is absolutely a valid reason to feel that a villain who has an actual, literal trollface meme as a head and fights the hero in rhythm beat rap battles and dies with his last words being a very Played for Laughs "Oh shit." is not played seriously enough and this insistence on "it's not a good idea to downvote for (X) reasons that I disagree with" isn't an argument.

I also admittedly do not like the tone being taken here of "I think this is played seriously enough and all of you are making a mistake by being at all skeptical about a meme CM", anyone who was skeptical before I chimed in had every right to be when the medium is so fuckin weird and coming from a newer user and the repeated statements of "we've had weirder candidates!" is not an actual rebuttal when I and others are supplying reasons for hesitance beyond "but muh meme origins!"

We literally just pretty much unanimously accepted a candidate from an I Spy-esque book, that is a perfect indicator that no, we do not just jump to conclusions and base votes on medium or "origins". But this is a character being proposed that has a lot, and I do mean a lot, of heavy marks against him hitting this trope, and while I always try to be open-minded when approaching candidates, skepticism in this very odd case is perfectly valid and I'm still not outright downvoting because it's a weird case, but I don't like the attitude on display of acting like everyone needs "reminders" on how to properly vet candidates or something.

Edited by Ravok on Feb 15th 2022 at 12:33:59 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Ithoughtof1name Since: Jan, 2022 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#301720: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:37:03 PM

Leaning towards declining Legion.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#301721: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:38:03 PM

I'd also like to add that there's a Bonus Boss that's not only an actual, comedic troll Played for Laughs, but also has more climactic Final Boss energy than Legion does.

I'm just saying.

[down][down] Well, it's still the mod openly acknowledging that it's based on a silly meme by making one a character.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 15th 2022 at 12:45:47 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#301722: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:39:50 PM

Okay [tdown]Legion.

This whole thing sounds way too goofy to have an example. It's kinda like Kids next door where Grandfather is the most serious thing in it but the whole thing is over the top and goofy it kills any chance of him counting.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bruhmpex Space Chameleon from Where do you think? Since: Jan, 2020 Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
Space Chameleon
#301723: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:42:46 PM

[up][up]Though you have a point mentioning Trallface, idk if I would agree with the stance that he has more final boss energy (the most he does is use All Your Powers Combined, and his song doesn't have the climactic feeling of Athazagoraphobia), and he's entirely separate from the mod's main plot.

Edited by Bruhmpex on Feb 15th 2022 at 12:44:12 PM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#301724: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:45:54 PM

Going to abstain on Legion and leave it at that.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#301725: Feb 15th 2022 at 12:45:55 PM

Lemme get this one up quickly:

Who is King Vortigern?

The Big Bad of Werewolf Castle. Vortigern is an elderly monarch who desires to conquer the world and replace humanity with his werewolf children, having created the monstrous wolves. Everything that doesn't bow down to him? Annihilated. Turning numerous members of his forces into wolves, Vortigern sends them out to slaughter numerous villages. Led by Wolfstan, who turns out to be his chief enforcers, the werewolves slaughter entire villages while Vortigern enlists civilians to capture travelers, or take prisoners and turn them into food for the wolves.

Now, the hero, Thorfinn and team, not realizing Vortigern is the man behind things, have the plan to head to the King and petition him for help...many of them die along the way from Vortigern's wolves, and Vortigern greets them a cackling sadist who plans to turn them or murder them, even having his own son tortured and murdered by shoving a sword down his throat. Thorfinn, who's suffered issues from cowardice, begs to be turned...

As part of a plan. Freed, he uses the power of the werewolf to slaughter Vortigern's men, ending as he descends on Vortigern himself and rips him apart with his claws and teeth before returning home, reporting what happened...and having them behead him so that the werewolf curse is ended.

Mitigating issues?

Hell do we think? No, none. Vortigern is a monster. He's played with no subtlety whatso-freaking-ever. He's a sadistic, crazed lunatic who vies the werewolves as his creations and intends mass geocide and slaughter. Even his own family are dirt to him.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

And a writeup

  • King Vortigern is the true monster behind the werewolves. An elderly despot who wishes to replace humankind with a race of his choosing, Vortigern unleashes the wolves upon innocent villages to slaughter them all and sets up an encampment so that travelers become meat for his wolves. Upon capturing the heroes, the savage Vortigern has them tortured to force them to become werewolves, even murdering his own kin with no remorse.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 15th 2022 at 12:47:56 PM


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