During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Abstain on Chak Ek as I know nothing about Mayan Mythology.
ACW: Assassin's Creed: Haytham Kenway is now a thing if you want to link him in that quote.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Chak Ek
Athalie
Zoran
Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 6th 2022 at 3:42:00 PM
Watch me destroying my countryTaking Saturdays off to focus on my creative stuff, knowing that there'll be lots to catch up on.
for Klaw, the Dr. Facilier video, the Syndrome video (tentative), Cole, the Ozai video, Doctor Satan, the Frieza video, Vardhaan, Butler, Zoran, Gordon, Kaplan, George, Athalie, and Chak-Ek.
for Spamton, and the Lotso video (tentative).
Again, my condolences to you and your brother, G, and I hope you're doing okay, Satoshi.
Not really a fan of the Losto video. Its probably better under Dirty Coward.
Athalie and Chak-Ek.
I'll lean yes to Chak Ek. Now having just watched The Darkest Minds I'll have a couple effort posts from it soon but first I'd like to discuss the current keeper:
- President Gray is revealed to be behind all the misery that the Espers children have to endure. When his son, Clancy, gets a mysterious disease known as IAAN, Gray performs various experiments on him and later uses him as a tool for propaganda so that he could make concentration camps for the Espers. In said camps, most of the children were mistreated with anyone who defies the soldiers being executed. He is also revealed to be the one who came up with the procedure of eliminating "Orange" and "Red" Espers leading to the near extinction of the Orange Espers in the process.
He's an apathetic dick about the experimentation on Clancy but there are two problems here: Clancy is an utter sociopath by nature, as the film makes quite clear—expect him soon; also we know next to nothing about how long the President was in charge. After his initial scenes at the start we see lots of the camps and torment the children go through but the reveal is that Clancy has long since had his father institutionalized and is running the whole thing with the chief of the guards. He could have counted in another world but given how little we know he did other than start the operation which his much more fleshed out son takes over and acts as the Big Bad using the whole thing to take over the planet by force until everything runs to his own designs, I don't see it. Strongly advocating for a cut here. I'll have the candidates up soon.
Yeah sure cut.
He's apparently more active as a Big Bad in the books btw. As Clancy isn't even a main villain. So if anyone wants to check their.
Are you doing Clancy. As the old Ep for him was kinda a mess. So I wouldn't mind a relook.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I wouldn't say Dirty Coward as he's out of danger by that point. All Lotso has to do is push a button and he makes the clear, petty choice not to. Again, if not this, I'd think Ungrateful Bastard.
Perfectly fine to cut Gray, 43 said in the post he'd be proposing Clancy which I fully advocate since the original effortpost was a wreck and I can easily see how the person shifted details enough to get Gray listed under ridiculous standards.
Not feeling the Lotso vid, sure to Chak Ek.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 6th 2022 at 12:41:25 PM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Cut President Gray.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 6th 2022 at 2:41:48 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadCut the President. Abstaining on Chak Ek because I'm not really familiar with Mayan Mythology and don't feel comfortable voting one way or the other at the moment.
Oh, I see Abe from Looper was approved. A film I've only seen once but enjoyed immensely... and I completely forgot the organisation had a leader. I must watch it again. EDIT: Unfortunately, Looper isn't on UK Netflix. Jumper is though. Yay?
to Abe, by the way.
I do enjoy how it has fun with Time Travel. Like, yeah, there's a lot of lore there to make it "scientific" and to make it different from other Time Travel worlds - to have its own identity and made it feel authentic with the worldbuilding, but when you get Bruce Willis handwaving the whole thing because he doesn't want to make "diagrams with straws" it's very clear the film is leaning into the "Don't Worry About It and just have fun" Mantra.
We all make mistakes sometimes. It can be easier to focus on the Big Bad and get muddled up.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Feb 6th 2022 at 12:46:17 PM
Now let's talk about who does count.
Who is Clancy? What has he done?
Seemingly the tragic victim of experimentation ordered by his father, President Gray, Clancy is known for his voice on the radio broadcasting government propaganda claiming he's been cured of his IAAN aka psychic powers. In reality, Clancy (seems) to clandestinely lead a resistance group of empowered children, helping them escape from the prisons.
In actual reality Clancy is nothing more than a power-hungry sociopath who had his father institutionalized and took over the imprisoning process to scout and build an army of mentally broken soldiers. Controlling the facilities via his sadistic guard, Captain McManus, Clancy's regime sees kids interned by the thousands, having those who prove too problematic beaten, to death if they won't knuckle under.
After luring the heroes into his camp which he runs as the heroic "Slip Kid", Clancy has heroine Ruby teach him her ability to erase memories. Contacting McManus in the most secure of methods: iMessage, Clancy prepares to have everyone shipped out while mentioning special plans for Ruby. Trying to use her own mind erasing technique on her, Clancy tries to rape her and when she resists plots to make her forget every bad thing about him to twist her into his mentally broken slave and lover.
The group tries to escape the camp by Clancy hunts them down alongside McManus and his men, jealously beating Ruby's Love Interest and restating his intentions to break her mind. When they try to flee as Ruby kills McManus Clancy deploys his enslaved "Reds" (the strongest type of psychic)... uncaring as their immolation powers painfully kill both his own men and the kids he meant to ship out to the facilities. Attacking Ruby once more, she throws him off by causing a helicopter to crash on him, though Clancy survives, ending the film angrily looking out over his army while plotting revenge.
Heinousness?
Thousands of children imprisoned in horrific camps to be remodeled into his personal army or beaten to death. He swiftly took over from his dad and on top of that his rape and attempt to pull a Death of Personality on Ruby easily pass him.
Mitigating factors?
In his own mind Clancy's a tragic hero... the problem here is he never actually lets anyone into his head, telling Ruby his tale rather than letting her touch him and see his actual past.
He claims he's fighting to defend the kids but he abuses them, ships them off to hell, kills them without a second thought and despite claiming to love Ruby sees her as nothing but an object to lust after, outright saying he'll take away all the parts of her he doesn't like to make her perfect for him.
Verdict?
Overdue keep, not a shred of sympathy to be found here.
Who is Captain McManus? What has he done?
The head of Clancy's camps, McManus is a cruel guard who ensures the kids are kept in line, regularly beating and abusing them while happily killing any coded as "Orange" or "Red" for fear of their immense power. In actuality keeping the successfully tamed Reds of Clancy's, when Ruby manages to telepathically trick a doctor into coding her "Green", McManus has the man burned to death by one of the Reds in a rage.
Also responsible for the shipments, McManus... in his very professional iMessage convo with Clancy, agrees to take the latest batch from him, their dialogue making it clear this is a regular occurrence. Arriving with his men to face down Ruby and her friends while they try to escape, McManus basks in getting to beat her Love Interest for Clancy when he gets tired of punching the kid, mocking the kids for trying to escape until Ruby takes control of his mind to make him kill himself.
Mitigating factors?
Not a one: he's a smug, cold bastard who loves his job tormenting and killing kids.
Heinousness?
He's Clancy's Dragon outright overseeing the camps, has the nasty flourish killing his own doctor brutally out of frustration, beats and abuses kids and it's made clear he regularly takes them in by vast numbers to help his ambitious boss.
Verdict?
Another easy keep.
Clancy and Mc Manus.

Here's another controversial pick, from Mayan Mythology.
Candidate
Chak Ek is the god of the planet Venus and brother to Kinich Ahau, the sun god. Jealous of his brother's light and glory, Chak Ek plots what can best be described as a serial killer rampage:
- First he kills K'awiil, god of sustenance and storms. This causes widespread famines, wars and social instability.
- Second he attacks his own brother, striking him with a spear as he rises at dawn. This causes more warfare among the people.
- Then he kills Hun Hunahpu, god of maize; more mass starvation and plague.
- Then he kills the heavenly turtle Ak Na'ak, causing not only mass devastation but his own brother to die (again)
- Hun Ahau (one of the hero twins) tries to fix this, but Chak Ek retaliates by killing another fertility god out of spite, resulting again in more death and devastation.
The gods eventually come back to life, but due to his spite they are locked in an eternal struggle between being killed and fixing the mess he causes. Hence the Mayan calendar.
Mitigating Factors
Nope. The Maya are no stranger to fully evil beings (see Vucub Caquix in the Popol Vuh, which I would petition if he had more material to work with) and this dude has no redeeming qualities to be seen, considering he has no problems killing his own family over and over.
Heinous Standard
Mass death and misery entirely out of spite, which he routinely causes because he he gets jealous of his brother. The Popol Vuh vaguely recounts the gods destroying previous versions of humanity, but those were in turn evil (i.e. the Wood people abusing the land and the animals), and at any rate they didn't persistently, obsessively try to kill everyone let alone out of sheer hatred all the damn time. Meanwhile the Lords of the Underworld don't get anywhere near this violently spiteful.
Yeah.
Conclusion
?
Edited by monotrematum on Feb 6th 2022 at 11:54:52 AM