During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Oh uh btw HT. You've read Final Crisis, right?
Have Rox Ogama or Mandraxx (the final villains of that comic) ever been brought up here?
Was wondering about them as I haven't read it but have heard of them.
case in Poi NT. Count Down to final crisis. .....
Edited by miraculous on Feb 2nd 2022 at 3:53:58 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I remember reading Final Crisis, I need to reread it because I could've sworn Nandraxc has a redeeming quality like Even Evil Has Loved Ones.
Either it's true or I'm suffering a Mandella Effect.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Feb 2nd 2022 at 6:59:37 AM
Yes to Ramon and, uh, Rape King (WTF is DC's fetish with turning random D-listers into rapists?). I'm gonna get up my writeups while I have some free time.
- The Horde:
- Stone is a "big, homicidal man" who serves as the muscle for Cylus. A brutish rapist and murderer who, like Cylus, escaped a death sentence, Stone personally handles much of the rape and torture that the mutants' captive victims go through before they become meat, at one point nailing a woman's hands to a table so she can become a "breeder" for the mutants. Stone has no issue brutally murdering these "breeders" himself, smashing a woman's face into a rock after murdering her lover despite his orders to the contrary.
- Earl is the mutant's chef, a consummate sadist who Loves the Sound of Screaming as much as preparing human flesh. Earl butchers his victims alive and screaming with a hacksaw if they're not brought to him dead, waxing on about how fear makes human flesh taste sweet; over years of experience, he's judged his favorite cut of meat to be the thigh of an eleven-year-old girl.
- Wyrmwood: "The Doctor" is the nameless Mad Doctor employed by a group of extremists trying to figure out a cure to the zombie virus ravaging Earth. The Doctor performs his job more for the thrill of hurting people rather than helping humanity; he dances to Kool & the Gang while torturing numerous innocents strapped up in his bloody laboratory, injecting innocent people with zombie blood to see what will happen which always results in gruesome death. When he captures one of the main protagonists, Brooke, the Doctor puts her through prolonged medical torture, at one point pointlessly murdering one of his prisoners so he can torment Brooke by pretending he's about to inject her with his blood.
- Man-Thing: Ehrthold is a lesser demon whose name, derisive among his kind, means something horrifically wicked for the humans he preys upon: "Devourer of Babes." Ehrthold rewards those who summon him with delights only should they brutally murder infants for him to feed upon, and when one cult botches the summoning when Man-Thing intervenes, Ehrthold has no issue leaving their leader to burn to death and killing those in his way.
- Sectaurs: General Spidrax is the nastiest, most ambitious minion of Empress Devora. The ruler of the Dark Domain's evil armies, Spidrax introduces himself putting an entire village to the sword after claiming their residents to be heretics, giving his armies an excuse to invade the Shining Realm. Barely loyal to his own Empress, Spidrax dreams of giving himself godlike power and turning the world into an unending nightmare through the power of the Hyves, and spares no expense in getting them. At one point Spidrax enslaves a group of peaceful nomads known as the Hadj to labor in finding the Hyves for him, while expressing disappointment they surrendered against his initial massacre so early. A wicked boss as well, Spidrax sometimes murders his own minions—and their mounts—for things as minor as offhanded comments.
- Majestor D'ken was, until his demise, the cruel Emperor of the Shi'ar Imperium. Under his leadership, thousands of worlds and their races have been conquered and enslaved, sometimes subject to violent planetary genocides. D'ken himself is a sadist who murdered the pregnant wife of Christopher Summers after the latter tried to stop D'ken from raping her, ripping the fetus from her womb and incubating it into a slave that would grow up to become the homicidally unstable Gabriel Summers. Unsatisfied with the power he had, D'ken tried to have his benevolent sister's soul devoured by horrible beings called the Soul-Drinkers and then tried to use the M'Kraan Crystal to become all-powerful, jeopardizing the existence of the entire universe in the process. When his mind was restored from his defeat decades later by his loyalists, D'ken proved he learned nothing from his mistakes and once again attempted to abuse the M'kraan Crystal and the now-grown Gabriel Summers, in particular trying to use the M'Kraan Crystal to subject Charles Xavier to excruciating death or insanity.
Anyone opposed, BTW, to adding these two panels of D'ken
◊ to Image Links? It's like his defining atrocity.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 2nd 2022 at 5:32:02 AM
to the clock king, Jiro, Saburo, and the Hand.
Also Mayor of Kingstown has been renewed for a second season. Since I already discussed it on the MB forum, I might as well reserve it for here, especially since Milo Sunter is really shaping up to be an easy keeper here. If anyone wants to collaborate with me on that show, feel free to PM me
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 2nd 2022 at 10:06:11 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Clock King II, Jiro and Saburo, Hand.
I've been spending some time back in EC Comics, and someone really jumped out to me as incredibly vile, so I'd like to make a proposal.
What is the Work?
Do I need to do this? Fine. EC Comics is a comic series that deals in horror, whether supernatural creatures like vampires, werewolves, and ghouls, or plain old fashioned bastard humans, the latter of which is the subject of today's story. The story in question is The Jellyfish from The Vault of Horror Issue 19.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
Charles Norton is half of Norton Pharmaceutical Supply CO, alongside his brother Howard Norton. While Howard is in charge of drug production, Charles is in charge of business matters. The story starts with two brothers getting into an argument over a criminal plan of Charles. They've been given an order of one million hypodermic inserts of insulin. However, they only have the ability to make 500 thousand units, and Charles suggests diluting the insulin to meet the order, which will net them thousands of dollars. Howard is appalled at this and refuses to toy with human life for profit. At this, Charles calls his brother a spineless jellyfish for being unwilling to make such a decision and despite his claims, Howard is unwilling to budge an inch when it comes to criminal actions that could endanger many people. So what does Charles do at this? He calls his brother a weakling and grumbles over the money lost, waits for Howard to leave, and then forges his signature to the production order, starting the creation of these diluted insulin injections.
At this, the tainted insulin is shipped across the United States, where people who take it find them ineffective: patients slip into comas, collapse on the street, and die. The doctors who analyze the Norton insulin finds that they're practically useless. It gets so bad that the US government sends agents of the Food and Drug Administration to investigate. When they come to Norton Pharmaceutical Supply CO, Charles shifts the blame to Howard, claiming that he's just the business manager. When they find and arrest a completely confused Howard, Charles continues his verbal bashing, continuing to call him a spineless coward, and the narration gives attention to the smile on his face. At Howard's trial, Howard's left holding the gun (remember that Charles forged his brother's signature to start all this) and is sentenced to 10 years in prison for the crimes his brother committed.
10 years later, Howard is freed for good behavior, and it's never stated that Charles visited him once. In the meanwhile, Charles has been living the good life, having a luxurious home. When he learns Howard has come to visit, he tries to send him away, obviously terrified at the retribution his brother will bring. However, Howard acts like his old self before offering to work for him again. Charles seems to take joy in once again calling him a spineless jellyfish, saying to his face that he framed his own brother. However, he still takes the offer and offers a drink. This is when classic EC shows up to rear its karmic head. After making his drink, Charles pours one for his brother, while Howard slips a pill into Charles' drink. After drinking it, it's revealed that Howard had his own plan for revenge. The pill Howard slipped was a special compound he made in prison, one that dissolves calcium and phosphorous salts; y'know the thing that bones are made of. At this, Charles undergoes karmic Body Horror, with his bones dissolving and leaving an immobile mass of flesh. At this, Howard stomps on his greedy, treacherous brother and kills him.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Um, NO!
There's no hint of a Freudian Excuse: no Abusive Parents, no Teens Are Monsters, no Kids Are Cruel. Charles is simply a very greedy bastard.
Also, this is a story more heavily grounded in reality, so there's no possession, no alterations to his mind, no indications that he's regretful in the slightest. We see people devastated by the diluted insulin he ordered his company to make, so it's not Offscreen Villainy.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Honestly, Charles is a lot like a worse version of a confirmed monster from the previous issue: Dr. Perdo in "Dying to Lose Weight". Unlike Dr. Perdo and his deadly tapeworm eggs, the story explicitly states that the diluted insulin is being sent across the USA and that "people taking Norton insulin...drop like flies". So we have someone who sends borderline useless insulin across the country just so he can make a quick buck, and ruined his brother's life in the process by forging his signature and leaving him holding the smoking gun while he mooched off the profits of his illegal actions, not showing a single iota of regret and telling his freed brother to his face that he framed him for the production of the tainted insulin.
Final Verdict?
I'm fully willing to admit that I may have some bias that makes me lean to seeing him as a Complete Monster. My family is involved in medicine and I'm working towards medical school, so maybe his drug tampering comes of as viler to me. Regardless, I can still say that poisoning people across the nation in the name of profit is a vile thing to do, and the fact he did so by going against his brother's firm instructions and leaving him with the smoking gun is just intolerable. For this, Charles Norton earns my ire and a possible spot as a complete monster.
Do we get a specific body count for Norton? My issue is for as nasty as starting a watered-down insulin epidemic is, EC Comics usually thrived on what would shock the audience—this meant torture and murder up the bloody wazoo. Mass murderers who qualify in these comics tend to be mass, mass murderers.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 2nd 2022 at 8:28:43 AM
Not really. I know at least 2 were killed because they were onscreen, but we're never given a full body count. I figured that if the FDA is getting involved, though, it can't be a small number of people. The biggest FDA case at the time of the publishing of this issue would be the 1941 sulfathiazole disaster
, with nearly 300 killed or injured. If they're investigating Norton's company for something similar, it has to be a rather high number like that. Again, I'm fully willing to admit that my family's medical background may just be skewing my perspective and making him a lot worse to me.
Here, you can read the comic in this link here
if you want to draw your conclusions about him.
Edited by eruptor142 on Feb 2nd 2022 at 10:56:06 AM
I'm wondering if this will be a good quote for the Quotes section in Complete Monster
Maybe? My first trope reading that quote is Blood Knight, not Complete Monster. I think it's the fact he says "all you'll find in my soul... is blood... and violence!!"
Edited by eruptor142 on Feb 2nd 2022 at 10:38:40 AM
For context, Deku tries to understand if there's a reason for his fighting. Muscular simply states that he loves killing people because he can
Okay, I have been on a DCAU binge, and...Blight should not have been cut.
He did grow to care for his partner French...in a comic that is not canon to the DCAU, but rather, is part of an alternate continuity. So, basically, the redeeming quality that got him cut doesn't actually count because it was for a different incarnation of Blight.
Would he need another EP in order to go back up, or no?
Check out my current fanfiction project.Unfortunately, reading the comic, I'm going to say no to Norton. They certainly do imply a lot of being are dying, but he's lacking a particular edge to him to make me think he transcends being a generic Corrupt Corporate Executive, particularly when EC Comics specialize in such godawful customers—they were pretty much the reason Moral Guardians created the Comics Code to regulate brutality in comic books (ostensibly, anyway).
And I'm like positive the comic we chopped Blight from was from the Batman: Beyond comic, which IIRC is actually an official continuation of the comic and takes place on the same Earth. It's from the Adam Beechen run, right? That's the same continuity as the cartoon.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 2nd 2022 at 9:00:25 AM
I am going to have to go with a
Norton as well. This sounds like a case where the implications are there to the point where he might qualify on his own but due to how high the standard is he can't pass with how vague some stuff is, good attempt though.
I am staying out of Blight as I have no idea about any of that.
@Eruptor: Keepers in horror comics usually have a very visceral brutality to them—it's why not every run-of-the-mill serial killer will keep in a more brutal, explicit setting rather than something with more content restrictions. EC Comics thrived on those sorts of atrocities.
To give a quick example, there was a con man who qualified who soled a hokey pharmaceutical that poisoned the people who took it. If it was just like, y'know, regular old poison, like it is in this watered-down insulin comic? Probably wouldn't make it. But the comic instead places gratuitous and awful focus on the fact the pharmaceutical contains tapeworm eggs which eat their victims alive from the inside, slowly, over the course of months. That's the kind of sustained brutality that gets you on this trope in a horror comic like EC.

Edited by nwotyzal on Feb 2nd 2022 at 3:51:41 AM