During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
So with my first proposal on here! Let us-a go!
Whats The Work?
Daisy Brown is a ARG Web Series created by Julia Dapper. It centers the title character Daisy Brown (Who is played by the creator herself), who is alone in her house raising her adopted brother Alan, a experiment created by her father, a scientist.
Whos The Villain? What Has He Done?
Alan is the main antagonist of the series. He was a experiment made by Daisys father, who after his disappearance was raised by Daisy Brown after finding him as an infant in her kitchen. Daisy makes vlogs with him, telling the audience how to feed him and makes funny videos with him.
During the course of the story, Alan matured more and more and became more crueler, showing to be more verbally and physically abusing Daisy, going downright chasing her around the house and ripping out her hair.
When Daisy adopted a cat named Strawberry, Alan murdered it brutally and presumably eaten it. During the QnA video, Alan proceeds to verbally taunt and abuse Daisy some more, taunting her about her mother death, saying it was her fault. He then tauntingly asks Wheres Dad Daisy? Over and over which tips her over the edge.
When Daisy gets a backbone, Alan attacks her, throwing her into the basement and locking her in as he then takes over her Twitter, insulting her and tries to make her followers go away from her.
When Daisy find another one of her dads creations names Linthtop, the two escape the basement and try to leave the house when Alan attacks them, calling Daisy a homophobic slur and attacking her, threatening to bash Linthtops head in. Daisy proceeds to attack Alan, grabbing an object and when Alan tries to beg at her, she bashes his head open, killing him instantly, making her distraut and traumatizing her as she flees with Linthtop.
Migrating Factors? Freudian Excuse?
Alan was at first a sweet baby who was loved by Daisy before turning into a narcissistic monster. However, comments in the subtitles suggest that Alan was narcissistic from the start. So at best, he is wholly debased, at worst, he was evil from the beginning
Despite him being a failed experiment, Alan shows massive intelligence and personality, even when when he was young. He managed to write on the internet, going on Daisys Twitter and writing with spelling that is better than Daisy (Who can barely spell).
Alan only let Daisy live because she knew he would have have died without her, so he couldnt kill her when he needed her.
Verdict?
I personally think he could count.
Agreeing with Scrags on that one, Alan is a wretched piece of work and easily there in personality, but he's, for me, not shooting just high enough to land, much as I loathe the bastard.
Yes to the Professor however!
Ask, ACW, and ye shall receive:
- Last Days:
- Manuel Gomez was an ex-convict who became "Brother Belial" in the Temple of the Last Days, serving as Katherine's most dangerous follower. A brute and bully who enjoyed abusing any problematic members of the Temple by whipping them bloody or even repeatedly raping them, Belial executes anyone who tries to escape the Temple while ensuring the rest are all subjected to Katherine's vile reign. Party to Katherine's true intention to summon the Blood Friends to Earth, Belial convinces several of his "brothers" to assist him in massacring their followers, after which Belial betrays and kills his own allies and destroys the souls of several children so as to pave the way for Katherine and the Blood Friends to inhabit the kids' bodies.
- Konrad Lorche was the original "Blood Friend", a hedonistic cult leader in Europe who started out as a con man seeking fortune, before embracing his own ego and becoming a monster. Overtaking an entire city with his cult, Lorche executed several officials—including a Bishop who was fed to a pig, Lorche then dressing the pig in the Bishop's garb to mock religion—and enforced first total chastity for the entire populace, before changing his mind and dictating rape to run wild, Lorche personally taking even children to be his concubines. Beheading countless citizens just for fun and starving out the entire populace while he ate in excess, Lorche would also kidnap children to be kept as sacrificial animals and murder any who tried to leave his cult. After being executed for his crimes, Lorche merged his essence with the "angels" he had used to ascend to power, transforming them and himself into the nightmarish Blood Friends who spark Katherine and cult leaders like her to follow in Lorche's footsteps of depravity and evil.
- You Were Never Really Here:
- 2013 novella (and 2018 extended version): "The Boss" Novelli is an elderly crime lord who is approached by policitian Votto for funding in his political career. Novelli, a vile pedophile and sex trafficker, agrees to help Votto so long as he gets to pimp out Votto's daughter Lisa. Doing this simply out of spite for Votto's dad being a rival to Novelli, Novelli convinces Votto to take the deal before raping Lisa and turning her into a prostitute for his organization. Novelli goes on to ensure that no one discovers the truth, killing Votto's wife when she gets suspicious of Lisa's whereabouts and sending his goons to eliminate several loose ends tied to Votto and the hired gun Joe.
- 2017 film: Governor Williams is an apparently beloved politician, but in truth is a despicable pedophile and trafficker of children who attends events where kids are "traded" to fellow depraved individuals like himself. His "favorite" being young Nina, Williams forced Senator Votto to hand her over to Williams in exchange for a boost to Votto's career. When Joe saves Nina from him, Williams dispatches his goons to torture and kill their way through several innocents—including a teenage boy—to retrieve her for Williams, culminating in Joe's mother being killed on Williams's order, Williams hoping to take out everyone connected to Joe and Votto so he can keep Nina for himself.
Alright, I wanna open up the New Year with our first big, big collab. Myself and some close friends are gonna be going through this series—over 110 episodes, around ten or so of these baddies we've judged to be ultimately worth the effortpost.
What's the setting?
Miami Vice was a hugely popular buddy cop show back that earned massive popularity by focusing on heavy action, evil bad guys, snarky writing and wish fulfillment in the form of the cops being able to legally take anything the bad guys owned, including their snazzy suits and Ferraris (let's just say the idea of cops arbitrarily confiscating items off of perps hasn't aged the best). The show starred Don Johnson and Philip Michael Thomas as Sonny Crockett and Rico Tubbs, respectively, and they fought a long score of bad guys: drug traffickers, pimps, murderers, the occasional serial killers and rapists, out-and-out terrorists, and so on. My idea is to take some of the nastiest of these guys first and start rounding down to the more questionable of them.
My first candidate is one of the most impressive cases of Retroactive Recognition out there—the very first credited screen role of Bruce Willis. From the seventh episode of the first season ("No Exit") we have Tony Amato.
What has Tony Amato done?
Channeling a sort of villainous version of the "tough guy" image he'd later bring to Die Hard, Bruce Willis plays Tony Amato as a ruthless scumbag—he's an international arms dealer with his fingers dipped in all sorts of conflicts all across the world. He runs guns all the way from North to South America, and his latest product is a cache of Stinger missiles he's selling to would-be terrorists to take out commercial airliners. Tony goes one step further than most arms dealers and gives his would-be buyers demonstrations, "how-tos" on how to use the missiles to murder innocent hundreds of people—and make it seem like an accident.
Beyond his business as a merchant of death, however, Tony Amato is the worst spousal abuser in the entire show. Day in and day out, Tony's poor wife Rita has had to be the receptacle for Tony's anger, suffering years of physical and emotional abuse to the point she almost hires a hitman to kill the dude. She has reason for wanting to be so desperate; after she attempted to hire a divorce lawyer to split from Tony, Tony responded by hiring some thugs to gang-rape the lawyer's wife and then threaten to target his young daughter if the lawyer didn't mind his business.
Tony is ultimately arrested by a Vice operation, but he's ultimately let go by American agents with a vested interest in his release; turns out providing arms to militants in Central and South America is beneficial to American interests. Rita sees Tony walking go and, unable to let her husband be a Karma Houdini, takes out a gun and shoots him dead.
Any mitigating factors?
Tony himself has exactly zero redeeming qualities. He does the classic abuser Bait the Dog moment of "buy his abuse victim some flowers, tell her you're sorry and that you didn't mean it." The incident he's attempting to console over is hiring gang-rapists on their divorce lawyer's family—needless to say, it takes Tony about a minute before he's beating her to a bloody pulp again.
Let's take an overview of how the standard is like. I've described some of the generic villains the Vice guys fought before; the standard's not exactly Criminal Minds or even CSI, but rape and serial murder was far from unheard of, and a number of exceptional villains got to exceptional crimes in the series. Recurring villains included the crime family the Calderones, and vicious psycho Frank Hackman who at one point wipes out a family. Some of the nastiest you can look forward to:
- A former dictator responsible for the death of thousands
- A baby-trafficker
- A terrorist who attempts to wipe out an airport
- More serial rapists and kingpins who are exceptionally nasty even at their level
...and so on. Tony Amato, for his part, is one of those rare villains who are totally fine with a triple-digit body count or up. It's made explicitly clear his missiles are meant for civilian aircraft.
Let's compare him to a fellow Arms Dealer in the show at his level who doesn't count; Max Klizer from "When Irish Eyes are Crying." It's not that Klizer isn't nasty himself; he's also dealing in Stinger missiles, one of which he gives to the aforementioned psycho Irish terrorist who wants to attack an airport. What he completely lacks is Amato's horrible edge of personal cruelty. Amato has innocent people raped to send a message, beats his wife to the point she wants to and eventually does murder him, and goes a step beyond Klizer and most every arms dealer on the show by staging actual demonstrations for his plane-wrecking missiles. Tony's not just the worst in his tier, he's one of the worst in the show, and only a few who come after him attempt or succeed a higher direct body count.
Conclusion?
I'm saying keep him. And more to look forward to as my friends and I discuss this.
Edited by Scraggle on Jan 1st 2022 at 1:18:07 PM
So, just to be clear, there are several arms dealers, but Amato's the only one who's a Domestic Abuser AND the only one who demonstrates his weapons beforehand?
Yes to him either way.
Ordeaux, may wanna draft the page on your troper page now
Also, I'm curious: The Calderones seem to have Even Evil Has Loved Ones, but is Hackman one of the candidates? Also, is William Maynard? That'd be the second for G. Gordon Liddy.
EDIT: Though even if Escobar DOES still count, may not hurt to expand his writeup. (EDIT 2: Wait, MURDER A BUNCH OF HOMELESS PEOPLE??? Are those the people in the hotel, or is that a completely different action not even in his writeup?)
EDIT 3: Hmm, I'm of the wait-and-see with Escobar, depending how many people were in the hotel and how bad the other candidates stack up.
Edited by ACW on Jan 1st 2022 at 3:42:29 PM
This one needs rewrite
- Warchild Series: Falcone takes explicitly evil piracy of the book's setting, preying on innocent merchant ships just trying to get from point A to point B, to another level. He slaughters everyone on the ships he boards before blowing the ships to pieces, the only survivors the children he captures to then sell as slaves. Some of them he keeps for himself and abuses in every way your mind can possibly think up. Even after his death, flashbacks show him reveling in his atrocities. This is in a series, where everyone is a little edgy.
My first of the Miami Vice candidates. I give you...Sean Carroon of When Irish Eyes Are Crying
Who is Sean Carroon?
A charming and charismatic speaker, Sean Carroon is a former IRA member speaking in Miami about the conflict to gain aid for fundraisers to help Northern Irish kids. Vice Squad member Gina Calabrese attends said fundraiser and finds herself absolutely smitten with Sean...before a gunman busts in, forcing gina to gun him down, revealing a very young man.
The shooter is an absolute ghost and Crockett feels that Carroon is targeted for his knowledge of the old IRA operations which could mean he knows of future plans...Gina and Sean begin to bond and become lovers, but...something isn't adding up. In fact, as the Vice squad investigates with help of trans-Atlantic contacts there's a disturbing tendency of people who get close to Sean Carroon...ending up dead.
In fact, Sean is so extreme the Provos are freaked by him since he's aiming well outside their weight class. Sean's whole "I used to be a violent terrorist, now I want peace" claim is a total act. He's a vicious, cruel fanatic, in Miami to purchase stingers from an arm's dealer (and demonstrates on Crockett's beloved car) Gina is heartbroken...and Carroon is planning on blasting the Miami airport and the British super jet the Concorde with his "friend," philanthropist Bunny Bennigan on it.
Aiming at the aircraft, Gina manages to interrupt Sean, begging him to tand down. Sean calmly says this "is not your war, Gina!" And tries to shoot her...Gina and a hidden Crockett open fire, throwing Sean off the rooftop with his body laying on the concrete below.
Mitigating issues?
Oh, yeah. Of the nasties on show, Sean is a brutal fanatic IRA member who openly targets civilians and he's only in Miami to blow up a plane at the tarmac with zero care of colateral damage. The guy is a total bastard and the only good things he tells Gina are later revealed to be just him fishing for sympathy. People around him tend to die 'mysteriously' and his care for charity is revealed to be...not even remotely real as he's happy to destroy those efforts.
And no real care for Gina either. He tries to shoot with her without a glimmer of remorse or heitation. Sean's good at manipulation, but that's all he is. And with the body count from the plane alone, Sean would it the HS here.
Conclusion?
A yes to Sean Carroon
Yes to Sean. Figured it was him looking it up on the wiki. Second for Liam Neeson.
Carroon
Man this show sounds like it'll end up like with Charmed (1998) with a large number of cms played by famous actors.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yes to Miami Vice duo
Okay, for my first candidate of 2022, i've played through another game
What is the Work?
Chrome is a FPS game from a Polish developers, Techland, which is known for Call of Juarez, Dead Island and Dying Light. The game is also got named Advanced Battlegrounds: The Future of Combat, after getting an Expansion Pack with a few new missions to play through. Released in 2003, the game follows a mercenary Bolt Logan, who after getting betrayed by his best friend, found a new friend and partner, with whom he formed a team and started to go on various mission on behalf of anyone who pays. As he gets dragged in the war between corporations, he managed to uncover how corrupt they are and that his old ex-friend is involved. The game has an Expansion Pack prequel "Chrome SpecForce" which follows Logan's past as a soldier and his war with another corporation, which ended on a cliffhanger, which was never resolved.
Full walkthrough of the prequel can be found here
.
The Original Game's walkthrough can be here
.
My candidate is Logan's best friend.
Who is Ron Hertz aka "Pointer"?
The guy, who served with Logan in the military (he is Logan's chief partner in prequel Expansion Pack) and who also formed a team with him as a bounty hunter duo, Pointer got really arrogant and petty, believing that Logan always "stole his glory" and that he was the one who did most of the "heavy lifting", while Logan "took the credit". Arranging for a mission in some military base, Pointer backstabbed Logan, trapping him in one of the room in the base and leaving him to die there from the hands of the mercenaries. Logan was freed by Carrie, a hacker, with whom he escaped and formed a new team.
After that Pointer was not seen again until the second half of the game, where he become a chief agent of Coretech (althought posing as agent of Zetrox to frame them for Coretech's crimes), as he slaughtered all members of the entire corporation, called SPACON (who was the nicest of the corporations in the game so far, simply on the fact that unlike others, they didn't tried to "screw over" anyone). As Logan, desiring revenge, took the missions from Coretech, hoping to catch up to Pointer and make him pay, it is revealed that Pointer is in charge of preparing a nano-virus and attempting to unleash it upon the colonists of Terbon (women and children included), which would wipe them all out.
There he gets in the trap, that was arranged by both Coretech and Pointer, as Pointer laughs at him, mocks him and taunt him with the fact that he will wipe out the entire colony on Terbon. Logan was saved by the member of Coretech, Nicole Parker, who regrets her role in Coretech's crimes and wants to help. After that, as Nicole and Logan go on the mission to stop Pointer from unleashing the virus, Pointer captures Nicole and taunts her, before he kills her, as Logan (who was trapped in the room and can only look in the window) watch. After that Pointer escapes, only to be tracked down and then killed by Logan, who finally enacted his revenge, as Pointer says "It's easy thinking you're tough, until better man comes along", before dying.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None that holds up. While (as shown in the prequel) he was a good friend to Logan in the past, by the current events he resents and hates Logan, gleefully betraying him and leaving him to die twice.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
While the game is no stranger to deaths, and there are quite a few people, who kill and attempt to kill more, Pointer is on the high level, only rivaled by Coretech itself. Gathering quite a bodycount with slaughtering the entire corporation SPACON, Pointer gleefully attempts to wipe out the entire colony. With his betrayal of Logan serving as an additional personal villainy to make him more despicable. Granted after his death Coretech will contact Logan and tries to hire him to wipe out the colonists, and in one of three endings he might agree (this is treated as the most dark ending and Carrie will abandon you on the spot) and carry it out (although he will not encounter or kill women and children granted), but not only Logan will deeply regret this, this is merely one of the endings, which i don't know if we should treat as canon, considering that we don't bring into HS account the various villains, who only evil in one path in games, Pointer matches and even slightly outdoes Logan in villainy anyway, even if we bring this ending into account.
Here are all three endings for anyone, who wants to check them out:
Final Verdict?
What do you think?
I'm thinking of proposing Coretech represantative, since although she reffers to her orders, as orders from the company, she is the only high ranking member of Coretech we see and she is the one, who always does the talking and eagerly push for mass murder

I've finished reading the Third Testament prequel Julius that hasn't been translated into English yet as far as I know and...
I hate to be the bringer of bad news but Duke Sayn might need to be reevaluated. The whole five parts story is his Start of Darkness from a genuine Woobie and Nice Guy who cares about his friends to a Well-Intentioned Extremist to the mass murdering villain of the original comics.
There's a lot to talk about but the big one is that he's shown to unambiguously love his wife Livia. When she seemingly dies, he breaks down and screams in grief. He also very harshly punishes the man responsible for her death.
However, when later facing her father Julius (while sacking Jerusalem), he tells him that everyone betrayed him including Livia and that "if she didn't die, she'd be the first to fall under my blade". Uh I don't know what to do with that because it's after he completely snaps...
If a summary is needed, give me a few days...
Edited by Silverblade2 on Jan 1st 2022 at 8:13:20 PM