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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#294476: Dec 25th 2021 at 5:43:34 AM

[up][up] Out of curiosity, what were those factors?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#294477: Dec 25th 2021 at 5:58:05 AM

His only real baseline deed was trying to destroy the castle, almost everything else is pretty standard.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#294478: Dec 25th 2021 at 6:12:04 AM

[tup] to General Magnus Pierce, Kyoka Tsujigai, Tecteun, Entity 01, Jean-Marcel Belmondo, Hamilton Slade, and the Saint of Killers. Merry Christmas, everyone!

Misry6 Imperfect Disgrace from the Eternal Nothingness Since: Nov, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Imperfect Disgrace
#294479: Dec 25th 2021 at 7:05:21 AM

Merry Christmas!

Just an empty void…
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#294480: Dec 25th 2021 at 7:07:39 AM

Since it looks like the Saint's getting approved, how's this for a quote?

Saint of Killers is what they call me, boy. That name mean anything to you? I thought it might. Fella don't get as old as you have without hearin' my name whispered. I left this world in eighteen eighty-six an' went to Hell for all the lives I'd taken, an' when I got there I just went right on killin'. Hell's supposed to knock the hate from a sinner's soul, but all it did for mine was burn it blacker. I butchered my way across Perdition an' damn near emptied it of souls, except the Lord Himself came down an' begged for me to stop. Even offered me a job. Wanted me to take over from the goddamned Angel of Death, who it turned out had no stomach for an eternity of killin'. But I did. So the Angel of Death gave up his sword, an' forged me this pair of Colt revolvers from the steel. You know who I am, boy. You want to take the risk this gun won't work on you?

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#294481: Dec 25th 2021 at 7:32:56 AM

[tup] Quote

Happy Patrick Swayze Christmas everybody! Let's all celebrate with a special Swayze surprise.

What Is the Work?

The Beast was a 2009 cop drama on A&E starring Patrick Swayze as FBI Agent Charles Barker, who works with his rookie Ellis Dove to take down any criminals they come across. While well received, it got zero promotion (Swayze was busy getting treatment for Pancreatic cancer to promote the show), and lasted only one season due to Swayze’s failing health leading to his eventual death.

Today, we’ll be looking at the third episode, “Nadia”, which concerns Swayze and Dove dealing with the titular prostitute as they uncover a human trafficking operation who also sold her son. The one behind this operation?

Who Is He?

Roman Petrescu is the son of a Romanian diplomat who uses his diplomatic immunity to partake in human trafficking.

What has he done?

A slimy son of a bitch who traffiks Russian and Romanian women to America to force them into prostitution, Roman first rapes these women before pimping them out to buyers. With one of his slaves hanging herself to avoid speaking out against him to the feds (heavily implied to be the work of Roman), Roman also makes a living illegally selling the children of his slaves to families, having kept files on all the families he’s dealt business with.

Throughout the episode, Swayze and Dove play with Roman’s men, using brute force and their wits to free Roman’s latest supply of women to bring his business down. When one of his men is found to have accidentally assisted Swayze and Dove in Roman’s downfall, Roman tells him that everything will be alright… only to violently beat him to death.

When caught and tied up by Swayze and Dove to reveal the location of the prostitute Nadia’s son, Roman acts confused, only to confess that he’s sold so many kids that he doesn’t remember. Afterwards, Roman’s caught by the FBI, and all the women are freed. But due to his connections, Roman’s not arrested, instead forced to move back home, despite Swayze doing everything he can to waive his diplomatic immunity. Roman ends the episode smugly smiling at Swayze as he boards the plane back home.

Redeeming Qualities?

None. Roman doesn’t show any affection for his father, or anybody around him. As Swayze says, Roman has a “greasy soul.”

Heinousness?

While I haven’t watched the rest of the show, Roman’s a one-off character who deals in human trafficking, illegal selling of his products’ children, murder, and rape. It’s safe to say he’s the worst of the worst when it comes to this show.

Conclusion

I think he’s a keep.

It's Spooky Month!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#294482: Dec 25th 2021 at 7:39:50 AM

Yea to Roman. I maaaay have a keeper from a Swayze film myself.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#294483: Dec 25th 2021 at 7:52:47 AM

[tup] Roman and the Saint.

Merry Christmas, y'all... I'm not exactly having the best holiday season, but I do come bearing a small gift that I (somehow) was able to rummage trying to think about other things. A relitigation.

Sometime ago, our very own G-Editor proposed a certain version of the King of Heroes that was rejected... Let's take this from the top.

What is the work?

Studio DEEN adapted the Fate/stay night Unlimited Blade Works route in a 2010 film, which is infamous for being a huge rush job and Compressed Adaptation. We follow Shirou Emiya, a survivor of the Fuyuki fire, who has happened upon a secret tournament called the Holy Grail War.

Who is the candidate? What has he/she done?

Gilgamesh is alluded to as an extra Servant for Shinji Matou to use after his own was defeated. Gilgamesh makes his first appearance in the film slaughtering Berserker at the Einzbern Castle before brutally ripping out Illya's heart after a sadistic moment of false comfort. He later injects said heart into Shinji as its "vessel," forcing the shmuck to mutate grotesquely as Grail partially comes into being, Gil intent of fixing on the human race to befit his whims. He later appears trying to kill both Shirou and Archer for the crime of being "cheap imitations." Archer sacrifices himself in the process, but once he's unable to get the rest because the mansion is quickly being engulfed in fire, he leaves to tend to the Grail. Shirou and company go to Ryodou Temple, site of the rapidly manifesting Artifact of Doom, where Shirou fights Gilgamesh himself, cutting off his arm and causing the Grail to reject him (particularly after Rin saves Shinji and Saber Excaliblasts the damn thing). Gilgamesh is last seen trying to pull Shirou in to make him the new vessel, but Archer headshots him, causing the Grail to consume Gil while it disappears for good.

Freudian Excuse or other Redeeming/Mitigating Factors?

So what's new? The Deen version of UBW is non-canon (for those who can't tell, that's an official timeline of events integral to the Fate Series... notice it includes the original literature AND the Ufotable adaptation of Fate/Zero)—in the sense that the adaptations of the Fate and UBW routes by Studio Deen have been Exiled from Continuity. No, Fate/Zero, Grand Order, background materials, none of that tied into them. Type Moon washed their hands of this, which is a very big deal because TM/Nasuverse tends to have a "everything is canon" sort of thing. So, we're left to see Deen's works on their own merits. By that token, we have to take Deen!UBW!Gilgamash at face value. We have none of his backstory that was understood to happen, we don't have his care for Enkidu since he doesn't exist in this work, etc. As that covers most of our old concerns, we should be good here.

As for other stuff, nope. He's disgusted with modern humans for their hubris, but this is Gil we're talking about, the incarnation of arrogance and megalomania.

Heinousness?

Passes. Tries to remodel all of humanity and the entire world to fit his selfish tastes using the homicidal Grail. His personally heinous acts to Illya and Shinji add some extra touches.

Final verdict?

Given this new information, I think we're good here.

Edited by erazor0707 on Dec 25th 2021 at 9:55:12 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#294484: Dec 25th 2021 at 8:30:01 AM

Yes to Roman (though I'd be curious if anyone else is as bad). We need Roger Murtaugh to revoke it.

Leaning yes on Gilgamesh...but are they allowed to just say it's non canon? Maybe they should've thought of that before allowing it.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#294485: Dec 25th 2021 at 8:40:31 AM

Yes to Roman and Gilgamesh... yes ACW, creators are allowed to deem whatever they'd like canon/non-canon. I don't quite understand these line of statements like when you anger a Karma Houdini pops up because a movie didn't make enough money for a sequel: they intended for one to happen, you may as well call for all film producers to play it safe and always conclude within one film just so we never have a CM escape justice, it's a niche thread I doubt if most writers put in mind.

I like the Jesse quote on God for Preacher. I'll look into the franchise some more as well, not quite sure we've caught everyone.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#294486: Dec 25th 2021 at 8:45:33 AM

Just pet peeves of mine (though I'm legit curious; did they not realize DEEN's version would be that bad?).

Also, damn, I gotta freaking read Preacher. I like Ennis's work, and I know this is considered one of his masterpieces.

ALSO also, time for a Nasuverse page? I think this makes 9 total.

Edited by ACW on Dec 25th 2021 at 11:49:16 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#294487: Dec 25th 2021 at 8:52:36 AM

though I'm legit curious; did they not realize DEEN's version would be that bad?

Even Riverdale wasn't written with the intent to be shitty, no, I doubt they knew it would be that bad.

Nasu is probably good for a page. I've got an MB one if you wanna just use the format I did.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 25th 2021 at 4:53:08 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#294488: Dec 25th 2021 at 8:54:19 AM

Yeah, I noticed the MB one.

Speaking of, I created Fate Series and just had it redirect to the main Nasu one.

Here's a possible quote.

"I'm Uryuu Ryuunosuke. I'm currently unemployed, and I like killing people, pretty much. Especially kids and young women."
Ryuunosuke Uryuu introducing himself to his Servant, Caster, Fate Zero

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#294489: Dec 25th 2021 at 8:55:23 AM

Yes to Roman, holding out on Gilgamesh

And for what it's worth, I just found out about another Preacher script from John August, so Imma check that one out as well

[up] Quote is short, sweet, and to the point, I like it

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Dec 25th 2021 at 12:28:38 PM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#294490: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:02:12 AM

Yes to Roman and late Yes to the Saint of Killers, for the Preacher, i wonder if Jesus De Sade has a shot since he (from what i remember) the only one, who engages in pedophilia

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#294491: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:05:22 AM

De Sade's also a complete joke in practice... hell his fate is Jesse punching his pretty face to the point it's so swollen he can't articulate what happened to the cops when he's questioned. In theory he could have been a horror show but thanks to Garth's writing he's just a Black Comedy joke.

The difficulty with counting in Preacher is so much of it comes back to just being examples of the shit hole God's let the world turn into for His ego-stroking plot. Of the keepers two directly know what He's scheming and still support him out of fanaticism and love of fighting, respectively; while Sy and Odin go way beyond what someone would expect in the literally God-forsaken world.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 25th 2021 at 5:11:56 PM

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#294492: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:12:06 AM

[tup] for Tecteun, Entity 01 (tentative), Jean (tentative), Slade, the Saint of Killers, Takaesu, Roman, and Gilgamesh.

[tdown] for Garcia.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#294493: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:14:06 AM

The only reason I’m kinda reluctant for Gil is his canon backstory

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#294494: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:15:37 AM

Is this like Star's Saint where they're practically a new character from the snippet we get here or is this like approving that film version of Crocodile?

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#294495: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:26:19 AM

Yeah, I'm cautious on Gilgamesh. Isn't this movie just a Compressed Adaptation that leaves out that stuff for time rather than pointedly cutting it? I'll see how it plays out, but personally I'mma just abstain, this feels wrong to vote on at least for me.

Beyond that though? Merry Christmas, folks.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#294496: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:33:48 AM

When it comes to Emma, ACW I am not quite sure. It is easily heinous enough but it is said it was created by the Entity but we aren't given much info besides that so I am not sure if that would count as Made of Evil or not.

Also, man placing FNAW is going to be very weird as it is an FNAF Fan Game with Mario characters and we both have the Fan Games and Fan Works: Crossovers pages and in the Fan Games page we have both an FNAF tree and a Mario one but it has characters from both the Wario and Mario franchise. UGH.

I will make the Preacher page in a sec.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#294497: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:39:18 AM

Yes to the Saint of Killers, Takaesu, and Roman.

As for Gilgamesh, I'm going to abstain. I understand you going for the non canon argument but that particular reasoning for candidacy has always left me uneasy. The UBW movie mentions the fire that orphaned Shirou and this event also included Gilgamesh getting literally drowned in the grails contents, "all the evils of the world" and granting him a flesh and blood body. This event seemingly marks his transition from the more noble servant we see in Fate/Zero to the horrible sadist we see in Fate/Stay Night. I understand you're argument but I just can't remove the character from all that.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Misry6 Imperfect Disgrace from the Eternal Nothingness Since: Nov, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Imperfect Disgrace
#294499: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:42:31 AM

[tup] Jean, Entity, Slade, and Roman.

Abstain on Gilgamesh.

[tdown] Garcia.

Edited by Misry6 on Dec 25th 2021 at 9:45:36 AM

Just an empty void…
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#294500: Dec 25th 2021 at 9:43:43 AM

I'll come back later to address particular points when I'm less busy with family (again), but the short of it is that Deen had TM consultants for the production, and that, because this work was Exiled from Continuity, I'm arguing it also divorces Gil too much from the backstory we're familiar with ti be mitigating.

[up]x3 Tangentially related, and I'll provide a source later, but Nasu himself said that Gil was basically too proud to be corrupted by the Grail despite what happened. Make of that what you will.

Edited by erazor0707 on Dec 25th 2021 at 11:45:41 AM


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