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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#294351: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:21:40 AM

That's just to the Protagonists, which yeah by SMT standards; attempting to give Protagonists a Cruel And Painful Death is...common.

The average person on Yaldaboth's world is a Apathetic Citizen that lives a monotonous life obeying societal rules. It's a satire of Japanese Work ethnic; but it's not a world of Neverending pain.

Meanwhile; other Persona Final Boss attempt to...

Destroy reality

Destroy humanity and the Earth, thrice.

Kill all life on Earth.

Heck; even Izanami;while more sympathetic, depicted her transformations on humans in a far more sinister light that "become a unironical npc"

Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 24th 2021 at 9:24:11 AM

Watch me destroying my country
OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#294352: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:23:49 AM

SMT and Persona are different continuities.

OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#294353: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:26:04 AM

It still is played in game as a fate worse than death, trapped in a boring game ruled by a dictator.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#294354: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:26:45 AM

That is like; a improvement over the usual "Everyone Dies after suffering a sudden violent attack on their very souls"

Yaldaboth is a Persona Big Bad; the fact that even when he goes "Humanity has no salvation",his goal is "Then I will Take Over the World directly" means a lot in a franchise with over four attempts to exterminate all life on the planet

Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 24th 2021 at 9:31:39 AM

Watch me destroying my country
OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#294355: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:29:49 AM

Well, if you think about it, not really. Yaldabaoth fuses Mementos and the real world, and brainwashes all of humanity into being puppets for his own game. I'd ratehr die than have that happen to me.

OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#294356: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:31:57 AM

Plus in a situation where Akechi won, he wouldn't have hold back from destroying humanity.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#294357: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:33:52 AM

Akechi was a expendable puppet who would had his authority revoked as soon he got into troubles with the plan.

Watch me destroying my country
OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#294358: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:35:31 AM

Edited by OldMcBrother on Sep 21st 2022 at 2:58:03 PM

finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#294359: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:38:33 AM

[up][up][up][up] Regardless of how you personally feel, every other final boss in the series is out for an apocalypse that would kill everyone either outright or through outright reverting everyone into Shadows, ending humanity by causing a far greater Loss of Identity than simply being stripped of freedom. Yaldabaoth has to be compared to them since all of it is in the same timeline, and ultimately Yaldabaoth is the only one who does not outright end humanity.

At this point I feel like any further arguing from my part is going to just be reiterating what I have already said, so unless a completely different argument pops up, I will simply leave my firm [tdown] on the record. If I get outvoted, fine. But I think there are just too many issues to let Yaldabaoth go up.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Dec 24th 2021 at 9:39:04 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#294360: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:42:14 AM

Old could you stop double posting that isnt allowed. Just Edit your first post

[tdown]Yaldabaoth (since the heinous standard arguments are pretty good here)

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#294361: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:43:53 AM

Edited by OldMcBrother on Sep 21st 2022 at 2:58:22 PM

OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#294362: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:46:11 AM

But eh, I'll let other people decide on Yaldy.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#294363: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:46:45 AM

By the way; this is how to edit. I understand you;I didn't knew how to handle it before

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/screenshot_2021_12_24_094713.jpg

Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 24th 2021 at 9:49:12 AM

Watch me destroying my country
finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#294364: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:48:47 AM

[up][up][up] No, the timeline isn’t wacky. It is pretty much universally accepted that, with the exception of the first half of 2 retconning itself to a parallel timeline in its ending, every game is canon to each other, and every game has nods to characters and/or events from the previous games in some way.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Dec 24th 2021 at 9:49:15 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#294365: Dec 24th 2021 at 6:50:16 AM

Yeah uh even in 5. You can even hear prison interviews from Adachi (the Big Bad of 4. Before anyone asks I know he shares that position with Izanami. I meant its human one)

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
OldMcBrother He/They from Earth Since: Jul, 2021
He/They
#294366: Dec 24th 2021 at 7:03:09 AM

Well, I guess Yaldabaoth couldn't count in the end.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#294367: Dec 24th 2021 at 7:29:08 AM

Yes to Daher.

No to Yaldabaoth and Byatt.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#294368: Dec 24th 2021 at 7:47:26 AM

[tup] to Daher

Also I watched matrix Ressurections.

Edited by Snoketrope on Dec 24th 2021 at 7:49:36 AM

Bow to the Prototype
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#294369: Dec 24th 2021 at 8:05:29 AM

[tup] to Bestiano of Nebia, Gilga'mesh Xeth'i'stral, Donashe, Dio, Joe Vickers, Hitomi Ishigami, Luther Heggs, Kanade Kamiya, Piotr Grichenko, Banapur Khan, Christian, Brick Argento and King Daher.

Abstain on Yaldabaoth.

Also leaning towards [tdown] to Byatt. He sounds more loathsome than heinous. Just to be clear what is the shows overall heinous standard like? How common is say mass murder?

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#294370: Dec 24th 2021 at 8:59:48 AM

Now for my last candidate candidate from The Arknverse. Like I said before, I have my eyes on Arkn: Legacy, but I'll only propose one of three potential candidates belonging to the rebooted timeline, the other two are still active and their story arcs haven't ended yet.

Who is she? A very minor character from one of the written spinoffs, Reyn is a particularly sadistic lesser Dekn who styles herself after a succubus, receiving the title of Dekn of Temptation for her specialty. Partnered with her brother Arix, Reyn works under the empire of Hash'bor'kanibal as his personal assassin, often visiting Earth to instigate war and terror by manipulating mortal men into turning against each other—Raziel himself describes her as enjoying seeing "the pain in the eyes of humanity when they realized their faults". Reyn had an exceptionally nasty modus operandi when carrying out assassinations: She takes the shape of a woman that her target secretly lusts after to gain their trust—including relatives—before executing her prey, think of Envy but with sex involved. Fifty years prior to the events of the spinoff, Reyn and her brother received a mission to wipe out a rural family living on the coast of France, their orders were to burn the family alive to prevent the birth of a baby, Hash'bor'kanibal claimed that it would one day rise to be "an abomination to all races".

Caring not for the goal of her task, Reyn was filled with bloodlust and immediately traveled to France to make more victims, as usual. Turning into the sister of the patriarch, Reyn seduced him and then brutally killed him mid-coitus simply because he failed to satisfy her. To the horror of Arix, the baby was already born, and, in a sudden moment of remorse and empathy, he decided to save the baby from his monstrous sister. Furious at her brother for trying to preserve the baby's life, Reyn attempts to kill the child herself but Arix manages to start a fire that subdues Reyn, scarring her down to the bone and taking away all of her wicked beauty. While Arix succeeded in saving the baby—that would one day become the ancestor of Gabriel Holden, Raziel's own human counterpart and a pivotal character in the mythos—Reyn personally led the Dekn task force that searched for him for several years, and in the end, we're left with the strong implication that she finally found and murdered her brother for revenge.

Mitigating Qualities? Nope, most Dekn actually have a policy of protecting humans or refraining from causing them harm... Reyn thinks that's bullshit.

Heinous? Tricky... This continuity is filled with murder and death from all sides, and there's still another incarnation of Hooks running around. Hash'bor'kanibal did all sorts of stuff to further his agenda, King Gilgamesh sacrificed countless lives just to keep himself in power and then there's Marty Taylor-Hooks, just the existence of Hooks by itself is enough for you know what we're dealing with here... This world is pretty much trapped in a Forever War and it is nightmarish as hell. It should be noted that most of the atrocities committed here come from the higher-ups of the Arkn and Dekn, Reyn herself is quite low-ranking in the grand scheme of things, a glorified Mook given free passage by Hash'bor'kanibal to indulge in hypersexual violence to her heart's content with her unique modus operandi.

Conclusion? Up to you guys—personally kinda leaning [tup]

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Dec 24th 2021 at 10:59:17 AM

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#294371: Dec 24th 2021 at 9:38:36 AM

[tup] to Joe Vickers, Higomi Ishigama, Luther Heggs, Kanade Kamiya, Piotr Grichenko, Banapur Khan, Christian Spirit, Brick Argento, and King Daher.

[tdown] to Yaldabaoth and Reverend Nick Byatt.

It's a late vote, but I'll switch to a tentative [tup] on Elizabeth Bathory, since it sounds like she's given way more sadism than her real counterpart.

@43110: Thank you for the compliment.

@Snoketrope: Happy birthday to your mother.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#294372: Dec 24th 2021 at 9:50:12 AM

Unsure on Reyn...she seems bad, but the standard seems quite high.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#294373: Dec 24th 2021 at 10:31:40 AM

Abstain on Reyn.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#294375: Dec 24th 2021 at 10:46:59 AM

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