During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
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any particular reason you're downvoting on Robotnik?
Robotnik.
There are 4 Overlords in the Overlord series.
1. The First Overlord, aka Lord Gromgard. Nice guy, but you wouldn't want to get on his bad side. Rises to power during Overlord: Dark Legend and is still in power during Overlord: Minions.
2. The Second Overlord, who took power after him. The bad guy of game 1.
3. The Third Overlord, once a member of the (Eight) Heroes. The main character of game 1.
4. The Fourth Overlord, son of the Third and his Dark Mistress Rose. The Villain Protagonist of game 2.
I simply thought that if you did something sympathetic or good before you Heel–Face Turn then you can't become a complete monster. I changed my mind.
What do you mean?
Anyways The Spine of Night has a page now. So I guess we can put the examples on the ymmv page.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Regarding Walker Sloan from Edge Of Time, I do wonder if Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse will feature a villain like him. Spiderman 2099 is based on Corporate Cyberpunk after all.
And now here's another look into the weird and wacky world of Goosebumps with Series 2000 #20, ''Be Afraid-Be Very Afraid!".
This book has a slight reputation as one of the most convoluted stories, and midway through it get's weirdly meta. The plot is basically Dungeons & Dragons meets Jumanji, only this one has a clear villain behind the game's chaos. I personally haven't read the book for myself but I read a few detailed online recaps of it.
Said villain's silly name is:
Mr. Zarwid
Who Is He?
Zarwid is the grumpy mysterious neighbour of Connor Buckley and his friends Emily Zinman and Kyle Boots(Stine was really drawing straws for names this time). The trio is bored on a summer day and head over to Zarwid's garage sale. Connor decides to steal a deck of cards for the game "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid" behind Zarwid's back. The kids learn the game is a turn-based strategy where you draw different cards of mythical creatures(Jekels, Goths, Krels, Mords...sometimes I want what Stine's smoking) and fantasy warriors to defeat the other's army.
Before they can begin Zarwid drops by to cryptically warn them of the game's danger and tell them "Be Afraid-Be Very Afraid!" before leaving. Soon enough the cards start summoning real creatures to life. A "Krel" Pig Man appears in the kitchen and runs away while a small army of knights start going berserk at the neighbours' house. The threats dematerialize when the cards are placed at the bottom of the deck, but Connor feels guilty because an innocent couple's house has been destroyed with no explanation and they could've died because of him.
That night, Connor dreams of Zarwid repeating his "Be afraid" warning and siccing an army of monsters on him. When he wakes up, he sees muddy footprints on his bedroom floor. Emily and Kyle later show up to play more of the game, apparently not clued in on the danger. This time the threat escalates with a giant rampaging dragon as beautifully depicted here.
◊ The beast destroys several cars, power-lines and trees as people flee in terror. The kids draw out five knights to fight the dragon, but the monster kills two of the knights and sends the remaining three fleeing. Before it can attack Connor's house, the trio vanquishes the dragon by discarding the card.
By now fully aware of how deadly the cards are, the kids head back to Zarwid's house to return them. Rather than appreciate how they learned their lesson and apologized, Zarwid sends the children into the world of the game, a nightmarish medieval Death World full of barbaric monsters where everything wants to kill and eat them.
The kids are captured by a group of Jekels who try to force Connor to drink a chalice full of boiling poison to determine if he's a wizard. After escaping, the kids run into a field full of "Stelks", plant-like monsters resembling cornstalks, who are about to strangle them to death when...
You Finish The Story
Mark is surprised that the book he got at the garage sale ended on such a cop-out. But then he finds the Be Afraid cards at the back of the book, and he and his sister Amy wind up sucked into the game's world. The two are captured by a Krell and his monstrous pet, who try to cook them alive in a giant oven. Mark defeats the Pig boy by holding his pet hostage and the two flee, only to run into Connor, Emily, and Kyle. It seems they arrived at some point close to where the other three kids "died."
The group resolves to escape together, but get cornered by more angry Krels, who march them to the edge of a cliff. Mark realizes Connor still has the card of the Wizard(Zarwid is an anagram for "Wizard") and tries to tear it up, but is hurled off the cliff to his death.
You Finish The Story
Yet another kid, Ross, is reading this book in class and is perplexed by the cliffhanger ending. Later he returns to Mr. Wardiz's house to ask what the big deal is. Wardiz smiles evilly and offers to take back the book in exchange for a deck of cards-a fantasy card game called "Be Afraid"...
Heinousness
This plot gets messy, so stick with me here. From what I can tell, Wardiz allowed the evil game to fall into the kids' hands, sent them into a terrifying world of death, pawned the magic book and cards chronicling this to Mark and Amy, then after they suffered the same fate he sold it again to another poor schmuck.
You might say he's trying to teach them a lesson, but as Kyle points out, why would he not want the game to be played...if he leaves it out in the open at a garage sale? Ultimately he's just a bitter asshole who fucks with kids for his own amusement.
As for how heinous, he's one of the few villains who victimizes groups of kids rather than just one or two. He doesn't torture or kill them directly, but sends them to a warlike dimension where you can die in so many ways, including being poisoned, eaten by beasts, strangled by killer plants, baked alive, and being thrown off cliffs.
What's worse is the players don't seem to truly die. Whenever the gamebook reaches the point where a character faces death, the story hits a cliffhanger and going by Mark and Amy, the next guy to be beamed in is at a point where that character is alive. Meaning the kids are doomed to an eternity of wandering this volatile landscape in constant fear of horrific death that always resets. This guy could probably relate. And judging by the book's ending, he keeps this cycle going for his own sick amusement.
Zarwid also doesn't seem to give a shit about collateral damage. Before trapping someone, the cards unleash several of the game's dangers into the real world, notably the giant angry dragon. You can't show a dragon burning people alive in this kind of book, but the threat is still real as it kills two knights and was about to do the same to the kids before they stopped it.
Silly name aside, Zarwid is a nasty customer.
Verdict
I'd say keep
Now for the master
Stray Dogs: The Master killed every one of the dogs owners to get possession of them, often killing their owners by strangling them to death, taking advantage of the dogs memories, he keeps them in a house where he buries their owners, when the dogs attempt to call for help he responds by taking one of them and skinning them alive for their behavior. In a flashback it’s revealed that the Master had another pack of dogs in his house that he decapitated to keep as trophies on his wall. When the dogs attempt their escape, the Master pulls out a shotgun in order to kill them.
Edited by Mediawatcher on Dec 19th 2021 at 12:36:56 PM
@Orror SANESS mitigating qualities only count DURING their reign of villainy, not BEFORE.
Edited by nwotyzal on Dec 19th 2021 at 12:48:43 PM
What are the rules when the Jekyll & Hyde trope is in play and the Hyde is particularly heinous? Do we treat the personas separately?
After some consideration,
Zarwid. He's an old jerk, but I don't think he's this.
Now, for more Overlord...
What's the work?
Overlord: Raising Hell is an expansion pack sequel to Overlord I. It doesn't have any tangible impact on the story of the original campaign except that your Jester, an annoying Hate Sink Brown Minion, is removed from the Dark Tower after you beat our old friend the Second Overlord. It features new items, new levels and a new Final Boss to fight. Said final boss is the subject of this effort post.
Who is the Forgotten God?
The Big Bad of the expansion pack is the Forgotten God, a deity of mysterious origins who looks like the unholy offspring of an Eastern dragon and a Western one. He was once the consort/lover of the Mother Goddess. He was powerful, hated and feared. But then he was caught cheating on her, so she got very angry and cast him down into the Abyss, then struck all memory of him and his name from history and the minds of mortals. He was not happy with that, because even in this universe Gods Need Prayer Badly. So recently, he hatched a plan...
What has he done?
He lures inhabitants of the world into four portions of the Abyss. They think they're going to Heaven, or to see a lovely play, or to break free of their cheating husbands, or to get all the gold they could possibly want... but no, not even close. Instead, the Abyss will torment them relentlessly to spark the memory of the Forgotten God anew in their hearts and those still on the mortal plane.
Also, remember those Seven Heroes I told you about before? Well, they're here too, being tormented in their own Ironic Hells as an extension of all this.
The Abyss portions are as follows:
- Mellow Hills Abyss
- Peasants from Spree are lured into here. They're either chained up on the walls throughout the place or forced to toil away working in what look like fields, and are killed and resurrected endlessly by wraiths, the restless souls of sinful dead. Melvin and his halflings are here in a perverse recreation of their village filled with sentient and homicidal pumpkins and exploding sheep, and Melvin is forced to eat endlessly and explode, only to reincarnate and repeat the process. You have to exploit this to solve the puzzles in the area.
- Evernight Abyss
- The elves of Evernight, along with Oberon, are Forced to Watch a (poorly-written and terribly-acted) play about their suffering at the hands of the dwarves, with wraiths standing in for the latter. Due to a prop based on Rollie, Goldo's steamroller, being broken in the back, it just keeps going and going over the first two acts, so you have to repair it and use it to finish the play. It's here that you first hear the voice of the Forgotten God, who is overseeing the play and clearly wrote it in part to make digs at the Mother Goddess.
- Heaven's Peak Abyss
- The women of Heaven's Peak, bitter over being scorned for the succubi that Sir William and the Succubus Queen summoned by their husbands, go into this Abyss and gain supernatural powers. They use those powers to turn the place into a Lady Land, with the men forced to do menial labour while Sir William and his cultists burn on the fires of a nearby fire/lava pit. To advance, you have to kill beasties and strap Sir William into a giant broom or weedwhacker to clean the place up. Then you beat up the women once they hint at being influenced by a higher power and take them back to the surface.
- Golden Hills Abyss
- The dwarves of Golden Hills are lured into here. Don't know what they want, but they're dwarves so money says gold and booze. They're driven mad with Gold Fever upon entry and the wraiths take advantage of this to lure them into death traps over and over again with sacks of gold. Old King Goldo is here too, transformed into a statue of gold but still alive and feeling. You have to kill the wraiths and use the sacks of gold to lure the dwarves to Goldo's position, whereupon they'll become furious with him and hack him to pieces. The Forgotten God talks to you here too and whines that you're ruining his attempts to punish the Seven Heroes while griping about the fame riches and adulation they got as heroes.
- Infernal Abyss
- The last one, which crops up in Ruboria, this one can only be accessed once you finish all the other four and take control of them. This has dozens of your peasants hung up on the walls, and you have to attack those peasants with Red Minions to navigate a long and winding maze. Kahn is here, forcibly merged into a wall that you have to trick a rampaging wraith into knocking down. After one more tough puzzle, you get to face off with the Forgotten God directly.
The Forgotten God rants that he hates being forgotten and is done with it. He'll kill us and continue his torments to make people remember exactly who he is and why they feared him before. It's All for Nothing though, as you defeat and kill him. With his dying breath he curses you and gripes that if you want the Infernal Abyss so much, you can have it, and it will be your tomb. You make a mad dash for the exit but while your Minions get away, the Jester I mentioned (who is implied to have betrayed you and sided with the Forgotten God and may even have summoned him) seals the portal before you can enter it, trapping you in the Abyss. The wraiths all bow to the Third Overlord, who is now ruler of the Abyss. Silver lining?
Outside, Gnarl grouses about how he liked you and they need to find a new Overlord. Mistress Rose is revealed to be pregnant, and the camera pans meaningfully towards her round belly. Yeah, a child of the Third Overlord would have a lot of potential. Wonder whatever happened to them?
Mitigating Factors?
No. The fact he cheated on the Mother Goddess suggests he wasn't that in love with her and the play he puts on makes it clear he blames her for his current state. He doesn't have any lieutenants or underlings he talks or relates to either.
Heinous Standard?
Okay, so in terms of resources and heinousness, I would put this guy above both Second Overlord and Florian, despite the fact that his expansion being set on another plane means the tangible damage of his actions isn't as bad for the world as a whole. Why? Because he's a god. Not a small-g god, an actual GOD, with the inexhaustible powers and forces of the Abyss on his side. They're both lesser compared to that. The God's existence doesn't mitigate their actions, though. He doesn't corrupt anyone, he's not trying to reach apotheosis, he doesn't carry out genocide or form an empire in his own name. (I mean, he might have if he'd won, but it never comes to that so no point speculating.) In that sense, I argue that they stay distinct from each other despite all being Manipulative Bastards.
On a related note, he is clearly not tormenting the Seven Heroes or any other sinners/prisoners because they deserve it, and pretty much tells you that. His personality demonstrates a lot of pride, envy, sadism, Lack of Empathy and a sick sense of humour.
Now, some parts of each Abyss are played for laughs, but the fact he's tormenting and killing people is not. In that way I'd call him similar to the Joker and Xykon, where you laugh at the action, but fear the actor. When you fight him, the game plays a pretty metal rock music
track that wouldn't be out of place in a Doom game. That alone suggests he's meant to be taken very seriously.
Conclusion
I believe he counts. Thoughts?
Pothole suggestions:
- Nicholas Raider: High-Voltage Death at "electrocuting a fugitive boy to death"
- Nestor: Mentor Occupational Hazard at "the death of their mentor Joe", Impaled Palm at "stabs a knife through a mook's hand"
- The pirate lieutenant: Gutted Like a Fish at "slicing a man open"
- "Bob": You Have Failed Me at "beheaded on camera for their failures"
- Ta'lal: Fantastic Drug at "drug", Civilization Destroyer at "the utter annihilation of civilization"
- Jeffrey Hubert: Morally Bankrupt Banker at "banking executive", Cain and Abel at "sensitive brother Alexander"
- Colin Mandel: Shameful Strip at "stripped"
- Mr. B: Drugs Are Bad at "floods the streets with poison"
- Luna Booth: Sadistic Choice at "force him to murder one of his friends or die", Ordered to Die at "forcing any failed members to kill themselves"
- George Washington: cult at "cult", Villainous Legacy at "legacy"
- Robert: Lack of Empathy at "neither one of them cares"
- Hobgoblin: Villain Team-Up at "partners with the Green Goblin"
- Film!Chucky: Til Murder Do Us Part at "murdering his own wife", Laughably Evil at "sense of humor"
- Series!Chucky: matricide at "killed his own mother"
- Vic Slaughter: Transhuman Treachery at "abandoning humanity"
- Sidewinder: Mutagenic Goo at "Lizard formula"
- Caesar: Arms Dealer at "illegal arms trade", Evil Former Friend at "originally a close friend", Family Extermination at "hunt down every remaining Conway"
And that's all I have for now
