During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Woagh
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It's an amalgamation of over 200 different serial killers and cult leaders (including Adolf Hitler and Charles Manson) specifically created to be as nasty as possible, and from the looks of things this is an integral part of his character.
I think the guy lacks agency even with the new rules.
from what I've heard, pretty much everyone except the gym teacher is topped by Shido.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 16th 2021 at 4:46:52 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Banipal.
SIU Director is just a cog in the machine with nothing that stands out enough to really separate him from Shido.
Best Smile
Nestor, Duke, Nicolas, Santa, Mince, Banipal.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Nestor, Duke, Nicolas, Santa, Mince, Joyce and Banipal
Newton & Banipal
Edited by nwotyzal on Dec 16th 2021 at 8:04:38 AM
to the Hooks Killer rewrite, Elias Exodus rewrite, Newton Joyce, and Banipal.
lmao
Mince, Joyce, Banipal
For my first CM EP, this candidate comes from a local franchise I didn't expect until not too long ago given its usual light-hearted nature. note
What's the work?
Upin & Ipin is a Malaysian-animated series by Les Copaques which revolves around the titular preschooler twins' day-to-day adventures living in the village. Having started in 2007 and still ongoing, some who worked on it would also help make other Malaysian-animated shows such as BoBoiBoy (2011) and Ejen Ali (2016).This EP focuses on the Big Bad of their third feature film, Upin & Ipin: The Lone Gibbon Kris (2019), where the twins and their friends find a mystical kris (a type of dagger) and are transported to the fantasy land of Inderaloka, home to many figures of Malaysian folklore - currently under the tyrannical rule of Raja Bersiong, (which translates to "Fanged King," but he's still called Raja Bersiong in the English dub.)
Who is Raja Bersiong?
as retold by this video from Les Copaque. In this film, his bloodlust in the original tale isn't depicted as much compared to his vicious desire to be king. Now he's this floating limbless telekinetic bastard in a cloak, who controls a magic staff and a swarm of cicadas who can materialise into human-like mooks. At least, that's how I can best explain
whatever this guy is supposed to be.
Actions
Raja Bersiong introduces himself by violently usurping the throne of the king of Inderaloka, who fights him with the titular keris. From an ajar door out of Bersiong's sight, the child prince is held back by the slightly older admiral by the king's last wish and command to protect the prince, so the admiral evacuates the prince from the scene. Bersiong strangles the King, whose last words speak of a prophecy foretelling the enemy's defeat before Bersiong throws him at a wall. But the incantation activates the kris, and it zips right past Bersiong's head, scarring him. He orders his swarm of cicadas to get the kris, but it flies into the open mouth of a split boulder (Batu Belah) which shuts. It's apparently a portal to the world the twins live in.
Upin, Ipin and their friends find the kris while cleaning up Tok Dalang's basement, who told the twins a bit about the kris some time earlier. Reading an incantation on the handle causes a portal to suck in the interior wall and all the kids with it. They're coughed out of the rock in Inderaloka but are separated into two groups; each possessing a piece of the kris. One group meets Mat Jenin the Daydreamer and the other is rescued by the son of Pak Belalang the Seer. At the palace, Raja Bersiong drops a goblet of blood-red liquid, exclaiming that he feels the keris' presence, but Pak Belalang claims otherwise to calm him down. He is unceremoniously forced to leave the premises anyway when Bersiong literally throws him out of the castle in rage after Belalang swatted a cicada.
Belalang returns home, not expecting his son to have brought friends, let alone them having the prophecised keris and one of them (Ipin) being able to wield it. Belalang helps them evacuate, telling his son to find Nakhoda Ragam and beware the men with faces scarred at the ear, before closing the exit behind them, taking his imprisonment by Bersiong's men in stride. The groups reunite at Nakhoda's musical wayang kulit performance, but the party's crashed by Bersiong's men, who all wear his scar. The twins escape on Nakhoda's boat with Jenin and Belalang's son, but the enemies display the twins' captured friends, saying they better come get them, or else.
The journey to the castle reveals Jenin to be the long lost prince and Nakhoda the admiral who evacuated him, and the twins get them to stop arguing after having freed their friends. Bersiong appears and a fight ensues. He goes One-Winged Angel when an enchanted cicada in his staff fuses with the crown, and he grabs the young twins to throw them out a broken wall and onto the jagged rocks below. They are saved by Jenin who unlocked the kris' power and gained an upgraded form himself, in the shape of a giant gibbon. The fight continues until Gibbon Jenin rips the crown off Bersiong's head, and it turns back to its original form while the cicada flies away. Bersiong outcries This Cannot Be! and vanishes, and his henchmen are Reduced to Dust.
Jenin wears the crown and takes his rightful place as king. They make haste to return to Batu Belah, but Bersiong's staff shows up there along with its dishevelled owner. He ensnares some of the kids and Belalang with vines, which the twins evade before they grab his staff and destroy it. Out comes the enchanted cicada, which Jenin pins with his kris, shattering it. Bersiong yells "My heart!" before withering and getting a Pre-Explosion Glow before exploding into light. "You're finished, Siong!" says Jenin before he thanks the twins for their help and the kids give their last goodbyes before going home.
Heinousness?
Admittedly, I haven't watched the series in a while, but finding someone more heinous in a Slice of Life series where the biggest adventures for the 5-year-old Not Allowed to Grow Up protagonists tend to come from real life and/or the imagination may prove difficult. The villains of the first movie are petty hunters disguising as monsters who get arrested. Haven't seen the second film where they used Roger Rabbit Effect, but from synopsis the antagonist is a land owner demanding his land from an orphanage which was built on it. I think a tyrant ruler based on a folklore legend of a blood-thirsty king is as heinous as it gets.
Any Mitigating Factors?
Although we don't see him kill the king onscreen or a body, it's confirmed since Bersiong wears the crown after the prologue and Jenin grieves over his father's death, and it's what kickstarts the movie's plot so I don't think it's disqualifying. Also, considering the kid-friendly nature of the work, even though he's kinda Orcus on His Throne until near the climax, he's still quite a mark in heinousness herenote . He provides no reason for sympathy, just dooming anyone in his way to get the crown. Even after it's taken from him, he doesn't stop his tyranny until he's Killed Off for Real.He is scarcely played for laughs, all his scenes regard him as The Caligula For the Evulz, and he's the embodiment of all the stakes raised in this film. By "scarcely" though, it's a few times that the twins Took a Level in Badass to help hinder Bersiong, which do lighten the tone but not by a lot to downgrade the threat he poses. On a different note, despite the film's many aspects being derived from Malaysian folklore, including Bersiong himself, I'm not regarding any of those external depictions here; even though the three folklore retelling videos linked in this EP were made by Les Copaques, they're likely only retellings as Bersiong is implied to have been killed by the end of his story, so I doubt they share continuity with the film.
Verdict
I don't see why not.
There are some menacing shots of him clutching the twins in his One-Winged Angel form but my best means of getting them is with a phone at the TV screen. Possible, but impractically difficult, so while I'd appreciate if another wants to get them (be my guest), I'm not suggesting them at the moment.
Pantheon Wick Cleaning | Discrimination and prejudice are different from distinction.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Mmmm.
Honestly kinda torn. His only actual kill is the King and threatening to kill some children. But as you said, this is a PG-5 movie.
Definitely Knight of Cerebus, CM material..mmm...I throw a Weak ? Its for really little children, this isn't like the Pokemon films or Transformers where the villains are allowed to shown more actions, its for a even younger audience
I feel your EP got significably hard to read as you mentioned way too much of the Mythological King, who honestly, seems to have more chances to keep.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 16th 2021 at 11:23:11 AM
Watch me destroying my country
lmao
Hmm, fair points. I may read deeper into the original story some other time.
He does trash around some guys on the way into the castle, but fairly they can only be implied as killed.
I'll still await more feedback tho.
Edited by BlackFaithStar on Dec 17th 2021 at 12:27:31 AM
Pantheon Wick Cleaning | Discrimination and prejudice are different from distinction.
One murder and goes after the kid heroes if I'm reading this right? He might be the worst in the franchise but that sounds below baseline to me, just because someone's the worst in their work doesn't mean they'll cross the minimum threshold for this trope and if it's aimed at five year olds I'm really leery to see someone go up.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
- Last Bible III: Banipal, also known as The Soul Eater, is a sorcerer that experiments on demons and leave them in a state of constant agony in his pursuit of inmortality. In the present, Banipal hunts the Shadow Walkers in name of Ben-Shoah in exchange for the Necronomicon. When the people of Baruch, home of a Shadow Walker, found and took care of a disguised Banipar, he used the opportunity to massacre the town and create demons that would brutally murder children, sometimes as Human Sacrifices, of nearby towns that Banipal plans to destroy as well, devouring the souls of their last guardians to send a message. Killing Miss Carol when she tries to stop him, Banipal survives the destruction of his lair and continues his atrocities, killing Jonathan's demon partner and performing lethal experiments on Harry before trying to experiment on the protagonists.
I guess it goes under Spif-Offs in Shin Megami Tensei, I guess...even above Devil Summoner as Last Bible III was released on March, 1995 while Devil Summoner is from December, 1995
Watch me destroying my country
lmao
I see your point in being wary of proposals from works aimed towards young ones, I honestly forgot about that one.
Although I await more feedback, I'm fine if this first attempt doesn't fly and I say thanks for the feedback regardless.
Pantheon Wick Cleaning | Discrimination and prejudice are different from distinction.
Woagh
Going with a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Raja, kinda sounds like he's just a slightly nastier than the usual.
No harm done in discussing the dude regardless.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Caesar
Late but Yes to Nestor, Duke and Mince. Likewise feeling Raja falls a bit short
Alright, still not feeling great at all, but here, how about a proposal to perk me up...in shameless, unabashed hype for Spider-Man: No Way Home (seen it, btw), I decided to take a look back at a character I dismissed a couple years ago...
What's the work?
Spider-Man. Directed by James Cameron. Starring Leonardo DiCaprio as Spidey, R. Lee Ermey as J. Jonah Jameson, and Arnold Schwarzenegger as Otto Octavius.
Yes, it was almost a thing. Yes, we are lucky it was never properly made.
Buuuut a script for it certainly does! Viewable here at your own risk! As a sidenote, just to clear it up...yes, we've shot down "script treatment" candidates before, and the website titles this a "scriptment", but this is totally kosher by our standards. It's not Alan Moore rambling and raving semi-coherently, nor a 10 page-long E.T. treatment... it's a full-fledged, massive story structure that just includes a lot of screenplay dialogue and details. With that out of the way, the film!
Ok, let's try this one more time. Peter Parker gets bitten by a radioactive spider and becomes a crime-fighting superhero while seducing his local sweetheart Mary Jane Watson with his sexy spider webbing.
Got it? Good.
Who is Carlton Strand? What has he done?
In a role that would have been played Lance Henriksen, Carlton Strand was going to be this film's amalgamation of Electro and Lex Luthor, an uber-wealthy businessman who rules the stocks of New York thanks to his gifted powers of electrical manipulation.
Once a small time thug, Strand was nearly killed after one of his fellow gang members sold him out, but wound up falling into an experimental area testing electricity and gaining the power to control all manner of electricity. Using this power to slaughter his surviving gang—taking time to torture one by repeatedly stopping his heart then reviving him over and over—Strand then recruits the Sandman stand-in Boyd and becomes a "legitimate" businessman by using his powers for eeevil...anyone who stood in Strand's way throughout his career had a nasty habit of dying from "mysterious" heart attacks.
By the present, Strand is in total power, but wants more...learning of the hero Spider-Man, Strand sends Boyd/Sandman to spy on and duel the information to learn how tough he is, while Strand occupies himself with his mistress Cordelia. Due to Strand's electricity-endowed cells, he can't make physical contact with women without nearly killing them. Strand...uh, doesn't really care all that much—when Cordelia tries to get handsy while wearing a rubber suit for protection, Strand refuses to listen to her saying "no" and forcefully kisses her, electrocuting and stopping her heart. After a moment of self-wallowing annoyance at his inability for physical contact, Strand remembers to revive Cordelia in the nick of time...later in the script, Strand simply doesn't, leaving his long-time partner and lover for dead without a second thought after forcing a kiss on her.
Desiring to make Spider-Man his partner so they can reign over the world as the top of the evolutionary chain (glaring sections of Strand's speech to Spidey about their nature were taken and used in the eventual Raimi film for Goblin's "We're exceptional" rant), Strand reacts to Spidey's rejection of his We Can Rule Together in the obvious way: by kidnapping Spidey's Love Interest MJ and subjecting her to some pretty nasty, sexually sadistic torture by forcefully molesting and kissing her, electrocuting at the same time and stopping-then-starting her heart repeatedly while Spider-Man watches.
Unsurprisingly, MJ is saved before Strand actually kills her, and Strand + Sandman duel Spidey...when Spidey uses Sandman as a shield to one of Strand's electro blasts, Strand doesn't bat an eye at the ensuing death of Sandman, focused purely on killing the webhead. Strand is ultimately mortally wounded in the duel, and gets an amusing final dialogue with Spidey, who unmasks:
Spider-Man: "Parker. Peter Parker."
Strand: "Peter Parker? What are you, a senior in a high school?"
Spider-Man: "Yeah. I graduate next week."
Mitigating features?
Nah, Strand's manipulative relationship with Peter is described as "father-son" like, and Strand does seem tto genuinely want a partnership, but Strand wastes no time in gleefully tormenting and trying to kill Spidey when he rejects Strand's offer, and his final dialogue with the hero is more shocked incredulousness than any real emotional depth ringing in. Nor is his inability to make physical contact really played up for sympathy, the narrative notes that he's "cut himself off" from love because of it, but he's just a creepy sociopath who explicitly "doesn't like to be told no" when it comes to women.
Heinousness?
Honestly felt Strand fell short here back when I took a look at him years back, but looking back, nah, I think he's just bad enough for a solo Spidey story where he's the only notable wicked. Killed off his whole gang for one selling him out, arranged deaths of anyone in his way for years, subjects Cordelia to abusive treatment, tortures MJ in a really nasty way to hurt Peter...I think he's just there.
Final Verdict?
I'll say Yes, and may we never speak of this script again.
Edited by Ravok on Dec 16th 2021 at 9:26:42 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Gonna have to say to Raja. Great EP, though.
EDIT: to Carlton (even if it would’ve been shit, I still feel like we were robbed, R. Lee would’ve been every bit as legendary as J. K.)
Edited by nwotyzal on Dec 16th 2021 at 9:19:21 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Raja, bog-standard usurper.
Also, Kazuya Prota, that’s not what Knight of Cerebus means- a KOC is a villain who permanently takes the entire series in a darker direction. It’s actually in TRS right now.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Woagh
to Strand. What an... interesting MO.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I think Vile Villain, Saccharine Show is what you're looking for.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Dec 16th 2021 at 9:41:15 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
The Emperor of Evil!
to Strand
But no to that usurper dude Raja
Edited by Powermaster201 on Dec 16th 2021 at 12:24:36 PM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Carlton
And I’ll be claiming the Unnatural comic since it’s getting a sequel next year
Edited by Mediawatcher on Dec 16th 2021 at 9:57:03 AM
Strand
Raja
Ultimate Moral Compass
Carlton, from the potential R rated Spider-Man movie
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Strand.
on the note of Shin Megami Tensei: Has the SIU director from Persona 5 ever been thought of, or is he overshadowed by Shido too much? You know the old guy who gleefully sucks up to Shido constantly and is responsible for participating in and covering up all his major atrocities as chief of his corrupt police force.
Edited by Sung-Hwan on Dec 16th 2021 at 4:26:56 AM