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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#292501: Dec 10th 2021 at 6:41:39 PM

[up]Actually, no. I myself put up another version of him from Dust City.

Why so serious?
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#292502: Dec 10th 2021 at 6:42:34 PM

I know that some users don't like trims but this one is one I feel needs to be done as it is way too big for a single comic villain.

  • Xenozoic Tales: Hammer Terhune, who works for Governor Scharnhorst, one of the leaders of the City in the Sea—New York City After the End—tries to discredit Jack Tenrec's philosophy of promoting a balance between humans and nature. To do this, Hammer uses a sonic transmitter to torment a T-Rex and have it attack nearby settlements. Hammer also tries to discredit Tenrec by trying to cause a bunch of Triceratops to stampede and kill people in a mining town. Unhappy with taking orders from Scharnhorst, Hammer hijacks a killer satellite and plans to use it to destroy the City in the Sea, so that he can take over. Later Hammer discovers a boy who can control dinosaurs and wants to use him in his poaching business. To test the boy's skills, Hammer throws him into a pit with a hungry raptor and sees if he can control it. In his final appearance, Hammer uses some stolen dynamite to try to flush out some dinosaurs, but this causes a wildfire instead. The wildfire is heading towards some gas wells Scharnhorst recently constructed and if the fire reaches the wells, it will cause an explosion that will devastate the jungle, resulting in mass starvation for the City in the Sea. Scharnhorst orders Hammer to work with Tenrec to fix this problem, by helping Tenrec use nitroglycerin to create a barrier between the fire and the wells. However, Hammer intents to kill Tenrec instead and steal the nitroglycerin for himself, not caring that his actions have endangered millions of lives.

Mine:

  • Xenozoic Tales: Hammer Terhune is the psychopathic minion to Governor Scharnhorst. Trying to discredit Jack Tenrec's idea of promoting a balance between humans and nature, he uses a sonic transmitter to torment a T-Rex and has it attack nearby settlements, then tries to cause a bunch of Triceratops to stampede and kill people in a mining town. Unhappy with taking orders, Hammer uses a killer satellite to try and destroy the City in the Sea, so that he can take over what's left. Hammer later discovers a boy who can control dinosaurs and tries to test the boy's skills by throwing him into a pit with a hungry raptor and sees if he can control it. Finally, Hammer uses some dynamite to try to kill some dinosaurs, but causes a wildfire instead, which is heading towards some gas wells and if it reaches there, it will cause an explosion that will devastate the jungle, resulting in mass starvation for the City in the Sea. Scharnhorst orders Hammer to work with Tenrec to save the jungle, but Hammer intends to kill Tenrec anyway and steal the nitroglycerin for himself, not caring that his actions could have endangered millions of lives.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#292503: Dec 10th 2021 at 6:51:17 PM

Yes to the Devil, rest in peace Nobumoto and I too would like to hear more on Leland... we may have cut Ivo but we also kept Drax despite that All There in the Manual mention that he always remember's his own mother's birthday, so I'd like to know how concrete this trope is. After all someone jammed in a Pet the Dog entry for Curtis Ackers that absolutely does not hold up.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#292504: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:12:47 PM

From where I'm standing, that tidbit for Leland is damning for the same reasons as Ivo Shandor. The implications look extremely clear. I'm happy to reinstate Dr. Death, but that bit for Leland should be scrutinized hard.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#292505: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:15:21 PM

Considering how damning it looks and the fact we haven't gotten anyone giving an explanation yet and the fact he was grandfathered in with no EP. I would personally say we should take the approach of cutting it unless an argument comes up that explains why it is not mitigating.

I also did check the wiki it seems to back this idea up but that isn't definitive.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 10th 2021 at 7:15:40 AM

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#292507: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:22:39 PM

[tup] Baker, Carnage and Rumpelstiltskin

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#292508: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:23:01 PM

I'm cool with Ordeaux's suggestion.

[down] The cut.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 10th 2021 at 3:51:16 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#292509: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:26:26 PM

Sorry, which suggestion? Do you mean by rewrite or the idea to cut White until we get an argument?

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#292510: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:40:27 PM

So this guy's both Rumpelstiltskin and Satan?

[tup]Rumpy boy

Considering a cut to Leland if that issue is not addressed.

[tup]Bluebeard

Edited by nwotyzal on Dec 10th 2021 at 7:51:02 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#292511: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:43:26 PM

Next Dangerous Tales candidate....The Bluebeard.

Who Is He? What Does He Do?

We all know of this fairy tale monster, but this version is a little different from most....rather than looking for wives to marry, Bluebeard regularly frequents the local orphanage in search of young boys to adopt. The boys dread his presence, sensing his true nature, but Bluebeard always leaves empty-handed, until one day, he picks a newcomer, 16-year-old Pietro, taking him in. Shortly after arriving in the castle, Bluebeard hands Pietro the keys to all the rooms in the castle, forbidding him from entering only one, soon after leaving for a business trip.

Overcome by curiosity, Pietro inevitably opens the forbidden room, whereupon he discovers the corpses of six boys his age propped against the wall with their throats slashes. Sensing Pietro's disobedience, Bluebeard returns, a grin on his face as he takes his blade and stalks the castle, ready to begin the hunt. Initially despairing, Pietro resolves to fight back for the sake of his "brothers", and takes the corpses from the chamber. Searching for his prey, Bluebeard finds the six corpses seated at the dinner table, their names and what they loved written in blood on their chests; Bluebeard never thought of them by their names. Bluebeard furiously begins smearing away the blood, distracting him and allowing Pietro to plunge a steak knife into his heart and knock him out the window, sending him plummeting into the sea to his death.

Mitigating factors?

No. This Bluebeard explicitly takes in the orphans with the intent to kill them, baiting them with the keys and forbidden chamber to use as a pretext to then hunt them down like animals. He's described as grinning when he enters the castle and it's noted that he lives to "catch and kill".

Heinousness?

I won't bother comparing him to the Devil, seeing as he is, well, the Devil. His usual shtick of "marrying and killing women" is replaced with "adopting and murdering orphans". He's noted to have had a wife once, who he's all but stated to have murdered as well ("Wives are curious cats. They nose about and ask too many questions. They are not grateful for what they have.") Pretty much every other villain in the anthology is either bog-standard or falls too much into Offscreen Villainy.

Final Verdict?

Your call.

There's another candidate I'm not as sure of. Little Red Riding Hood features a werewolf pack who force a village to give up the prettiest girl for them to eat each year. They have an established leader, but I feel they may fall too much into being a group.

Edited by Clown-Face on Dec 10th 2021 at 7:48:04 AM

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#292513: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:51:18 PM

[tup] to the Devil and Bluebeard

I also played Heavy Rain and I never seen Leland mention his mother and the fact the him killing women when his mother died could just be coincidence and his mom’s seemingly clean room could just be a level made the developers purely for cosmetics.

[down] with that said I vote to keep Leland. A picture speculating that it may or may not be his mother isn’t militating enough

Edited by G-Editor on Dec 10th 2021 at 5:54:41 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#292514: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:51:50 PM

Yes to Rumpel and Bluebeard

I've played the Taxidermist several times and refreshing on it... I'm gonna need a genuine citation on something I might have missed to cut Leland on this. The wiki and trope page both use suppositions that his mother's death triggered him into becoming a killer just to make a comparison to Ed Gein (tellingly the "Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas" entry is worded almost the exact same as a "trivia" entry on his wiki page), when I have never once found or seen anything suggesting that as an explicit proof, and the whole "one room in his house is notably cleaner than the others" is one thing to say...but then there's zero explicit proof that it belongs to his mother. Madison sees a single photo and muses aloud "Huh, an old black and white photo. Maybe his mother?", and it's never once addressed again.

This feels like a bit more of a reach to me than Shandor's situation. Especially since Leland later gleefully tries to stab Madison to death in the room while laughing, knocking shit over and ripping up the "untouched bed" without a care in the world for the property that might possibly maybe have belonged to a woman who might have been his mother, and whose maybe death set him off to become a killer. With what we see, Leland's just a freak who has a tidy, untouched bedroom where Madison notes a picture that might be his mother resides in... I'm not sure I can rightly say that's enough proof of not only a motive for his killings, but a genuine "Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas" to disqualify.

If someone can bring me more solid proof, I'll happily flip, but if this is the extent of it? I'm fine keeping Leland.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#292515: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:53:56 PM

Okay with that I'm flipping to a definite keep unless there's more to the story.

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#292516: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:54:26 PM

Having read Revolution of the Planet of the Apes, one Ordeaux read and did an expansion on, I think Kolp and Breck need one too, luckily it's canon according to Ordeaux.

It is revealed that Breck (named Arnold Breck here) created the Alpha-Omega Bomb in the first place in the comics, and was going to use it if too showing full capabilities to destroy the world if it meant the eradication of all apes. Now I also made a mistake deeming him the head of the US Government when he's in fact just a governor head of a city, still his actions stands out and he most definitely still do with his attempt to destroy the world (it's rare in this franchise considering only two baddies attempt this). According to the wiki, there's also this thing called "The Inferno Program" which involves nuking cities which Breck was responsible for making but I couldn't find any mentions of him being involved in it in the comic so =I'm not sure if I should include that too, unless I'm missing something.

Kolp (also named Vernon Kolp here) gets some minor crimes like breaking Breck free to get to the bomb despite knowing Breck is gonna use to to destroy the world, killing multiple apes to break Breck free, and killed Mc Donald, Caesar's friend and a major character in the franchise. Plus I should mention he was involved with the death of Caesar's adoptive father Armando, who he interrogated which lead to Armando's suicide in order to protect Caesar. Also no, his loyalty with Breck gets subverted a bit, he didn't show any care of sorts when Breck dies and he said only a target of opportunity because he's mainly concern with killing Caesar.

  • Conquest of the Planet of the Apes and Revolution on the Planet of the Apes: Governor Arnold Breck is the tyrannical leader of an unnamed city under totalitarian government of America, which he runs as a Police State. He has the apes put in rehabilitation facilities to be trained and sold into slavery, allowing the apes to be systematically abused, tormented, and brutally beaten for disobedience on a daily basis. Breck allows Arthur Kolp to torture Caesar via electrocution, and orders that Caesar to be executed by Kolp. When the apes lead by Caesar began their rebellion, Breck orders that all of the apes be killed on sight. Returning in Revolution, where it's revealed that Breck was the brains behind the Alpha-Omega Bomb, a weapon he plan to use to destroy all life in the world if it means the eradication of the apes. Giving Caesar an ultimatum to either surrender or watch the world burn that ultimately fails, Breck attempt to activate the bomb as a last ditch effort to destroy his enemies.
  • Vernon Kolp Appearances  is the chief inspector for Governor Breck's regime, being both responsible for the death of Caesar's adoptive father Armando and having captured Caesar and subjected him to torture to make him talk, then trying to have him executed via electrocution. After the revolt lead by Caesar, Kolp launch a mission where he has many apes murdered and broke Breck out from captivity and gained access to the Alpha-Omega Bomb with the intent to end all life on Earth to end the Ape Revolution. During the battle with the apes, Kolp took the opportunity to shoot Bruce Macdonald In the Back, killing him. Returning as the leader of a band of mutants after a nuclear holocaust, Kolp tries to eradicate everyone residing in Ape City, humans and apes alike, killing a gorilla soldier along the way. Once this fails, he tries to use the Alpha-Omega Bomb to destroy the entire city as a last-ditch effort to kill everyone despite its capabilities to destroy the entire world.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Dec 10th 2021 at 11:06:32 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#292517: Dec 10th 2021 at 7:55:23 PM

Okay if it's not even confirmed it's his mother's house then we can keep him thanks for looking into it more Ravok.

As we discussed I approve of the rewrites no idea how I managed to miss that stuff.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 10th 2021 at 7:56:16 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#292518: Dec 10th 2021 at 8:03:54 PM

I guess with that information, yes to Leleand (should we delete that example and say it's not clear that's his mother's room?)

[tup]Bluebeard (honestly when the EP said young boys, I thought this was going to be a lot worse)

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#292519: Dec 10th 2021 at 8:24:20 PM

[tup] Rumpy and Blue

It's Spooky Month!
Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#292520: Dec 10th 2021 at 8:27:53 PM

[tup] Bluebeard

curiously: why was Huey Emmerich at one point visibly discussed but ultimately abstained/vetoed out

all I'll say on the matter for now, personally, is he reminds me a lot of Shou Tucker on how being delusional and more pitiful than consciously evil might not really be an excuse. Although, in the scope of atrocities and sheer denial and pathological lying, Huey is on a whole other level compared to Tucker.

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Dec 10th 2021 at 8:36:05 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#292521: Dec 10th 2021 at 8:28:23 PM

From what I have heard it was offscreen villainy combined with failing the high heinous standard.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#292522: Dec 10th 2021 at 8:31:28 PM

[up][up] If you feel like he counts I’d say go ahead and EP him. with the new rules in play I think Huey Emmerich is worth discussing

Edited by G-Editor on Dec 10th 2021 at 6:33:59 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#292523: Dec 10th 2021 at 8:33:37 PM

Huey is a Hate Sink prick, he fails the standard hard.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#292524: Dec 10th 2021 at 8:40:20 PM

Yes to Bluebeard.

Did somebody ask for more Marvel? Nobody at all? Too bad! I got kind of a weird one today—this one comes from the Marvel Adventures line, a kid-friendlier take on the 616 universe with looser, less stringent continuity, and less darkness and death; think of it like a comic take on a Marvel animated show. For as much as some villains are watered down by the censorship, there was still one guy I found who I think passes our litmus test, from issue #44 of Marvel Adventures Spider-Man.

What has Sidewinder done?

Leader of the Serpent Society, Sidewinder is a snake-obsessed supervillain who captures fellow reptilian supervillain Curt Connors. Except Curt's not the Lizard, and he doesn't want to be, but that doesn't stop Sidewinder from forcing poor Curt to become a Reluctant Mad Scientist, making him test his Lizard formula on numerous random innocents. These people become lizard people themselves, which Sidewinder unleashes to wreak havoc; Spider-Man manages to reverse the transformations and save the poor people.

When Spidey gets to the Serpent Society's HQ, Sidewinder explains that the only reason the innocents he transformed into lizards turned back was because of a flaw in the formula. Now he's perfected it to ensure anyone who turns into a mindless lizard stays a mindless lizard, forever. And Sidewinder intends on poisoning New York's water supply with that formula, resulting in a Death of Personality for millions of people as they transform into lizards and Sidewinder rules his reptilian paradise. Dialogue indicates soon he wants to go global, too, which is enough to get Curt to ingest the perfected formula to stop Sidewinder form using it. This transforms Curt into a kaiju which nearly destroys New York on his own, and Sidewinder flees in the chaos, content to know New York will still feel his "reptilian wrath."

Any mitigating factors?

So Never Say "Die" is in effect and I am aware I'm tough on candidates whose rapsheet amounts to turning people into Baleful Polymorphs, especially ones who can be magically turned back. It's part of why I don't think Zombozo, for example, was bad enough. The reason I'm happy to give Sidewinder the pass is because he clarifies the only reason Spidey can easily transform his victims back is because of an imperfect formula, and there's no magic reversal for what he plans to do to New York. It's an explicit mass-Death of Personality plan and it's treated for all the horror an all-ages comic can treat it with.

I don't think this guy would clear in the 616 comics, but I should note the standard is inevitably drastically lower than the 616 properties or really most other comic Marvel continuities out there.

Conclusion?

Kind of a basic keep, but hell, Sidewinder's the nastiest villain I've seen out of the Marvel Adventures line so far.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#292525: Dec 10th 2021 at 8:44:32 PM

Yes to Bluebeard and Sidewinder.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 10th 2021 at 10:46:32 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

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