During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay it’s been a while since I did an effort post. Having a bit more free time for the moment inspired by the many great Scraggle’s Marvel proposals I believe I might have found one of my own.
This candidate comes from the Silver Surfer’s first series back in 1969, specifically from only the sixth issue staring the titular silver cosmic hero “Worlds Without End.”
Still imprisoned on Earth by Galactus's barrier for betraying his former master, consumed with isolated and longing to return to home to Zenn-La and his beloved Shalla Bal, on the cusp of depression the desperate Surfer attempts to travel faster than the speed of light, so he can throw himself into distant future hoping the barrier will no longer exist by this point.
He succeeds only to his horror to discover not only the earth and Zenn-La, but all the planets nothing more than desolate ruins and all life seeming extinct. Initially overcome with melancholy believing all life has destroyed itself rending existence pointless, it turns out all this is the work of one monster.
I give you Rakkhal the Overlord.
Who Is he:
Somewhere in the distant future, long after much of universe has abandoned war, Rakkhal (who is never actually named in the story, I'm taking this from his entry in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z volume 8) was the son of a chief of research for Dakkam, working at one of the Galaxy’s few remaining Atomic experimental centres.
A freak accident caused the genes in his body to irrevocably altered, and thus his child was born an incomprehensible mutant in possession of vast powers, in particular indestructibility. Already reaching the size of a grown man at merely four years of age, the Overlord would grow to gigantic proportions, from all this power grew a great arrogance and savage cruelty.
What Does He Do:
Terrorising his native world from childhood and merely getting worse as he got older, pushed to the limit the Dakkamite authorities attempted to launch him into deep space. But their efforts were futile, determine that life would be his enemy the Overlord vowed “since they cannot crush me, I will crush them!” within hours he reduced his home planet to smouldering rubble.
Those who survived his onslaught he fashioned into an army of slaves, which he dispatched upon the universe declaring it was his destiny to rule over the universe. All worlds were crushed without mercy, reduced to “charred orbiting cinders”, untold trillions dying “like grass to a scythe!”
By the time of the story the Overlord has ruled for many years and believes he has conquered the entire universe, all that remaining only as his slaves. Life existing in three levels, the one’s at the very bottom reduced to primitives barely raking an existence on a few burned out husks of worlds, the next level labouring to fulfil the Overlord every whim, and highest level the “trustees” who act as his soldiers and maintain his machines, as well as having their very life energies sapped away to power them. All of which will die at the first hint of failure, disobedience or simply cause the Overlord feels like it.
Following being captured by some primitives (with the one who caught him promptly killed by their chief for the reward, and he himself being slaughtered by the trustee’s for asking for it) the Surfer is brought before the Overlord who assumes his existence must mean that their is still one world out their he missed and becomes vows to find it so he can wipe it out as well, admitting his enjoyment at getting to deal with a living prisoner for the first time in years.
The Surfer blasts the Overlord managing to knock him over, one of his guard’s attempts to shoot the Surfer only for the Overlord to obliterate his head, overjoyed to have found an opponent to give him the amusement of battle, before snuffing out his life. However, beforehand he decides he to have some refreshment, having his slaves drag before him a massive feast and then tossing them a single small bone for them to fight over as their “reward.”
He then orders his “captive dancers” to perform whilst he relaxes. One of them resembling Shalla causes the Surfer to attempt to save her, thus the Overlord kills her. Enraged the Surfer attacks only to find that even the power cosmic cannot harm the Overlord, with the Overlord ripping apart his own throne room attempting to kill him nearly crushing his slaves to his utter apathy. The Surfer attempts to save them, but the distraction allows the Overlord to knock him out cold.
Believing the Surfer dead, he then calls in his soldiers and mocks them for thinking he could need them, before putting them to work clearing up the mess, whilst also telling them to disintegrate the Surfer. However, the last surviving Zenn-Lavian, remembering the legends of the Surfer saves him and fills him in on the Overlord’s history.
Armed with this knowledge the Surfer vows to undo the damage, but unfortunately the Overlord was aware of his slaves treachery and deciding it no longer amuses him, orders his guards to slaughter them, terrified and believing it’s pointless his saviour jumps in front of the weapons deciding death at the hands of the executioners is better than the wrath of the Overlord.
Furious at all this pointless slaughter, the Surfer eradicates their weapons and vows “I will reshape the Universe!” Summoning his board he shoots off into space, the Overlord angrily crying at his guards to kill him. Once again hitting light speed the Surfer travels back in time to right before the accident, then encases the atomic centre in an impenetrable shield.
His father’s gene’s never altered, the Overlord and all his crimes are wiped from existence.
Any Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Traits:
Nothing much.
We get a one off line that his parents were able to check him and that he didn’t really go out of control till after their deaths. However, flashbacks show him committing destruction and murder from childhood. With the entire event simply being someone relating a story they heard. Likewise they get no scenes together, and he never shows any care for them in the present, with him openly boasting to see all life as beneath him and boasting at the “untold billions” he’s slaughtered.
His conquest is motivated by him deciding that life was his enemy, but it was only the case because of his own cruelty and disregard for all others.
We briefly get a glimpse of the new time line where he is simply an ordinary Dakkite child. However, it’s never suggested his mutations impaired his moral standards, more simply the vast power and complete freedom from consequences corrupted him. The Overlord is presented as being fully aware of everything he does and taking perverse enjoyment from it.
Heinous Standard:
Well I know the Marvel Universe has a very high standard at this point and incredibly powerful entities who commit mass destruction, conquest and slavery aren’t exactly unheard off. But it has to be specified, the Overlord wiped out or enslaved all life in the universe.
This likewise isn’t just brushed over, we get multiple flashbacks of him slaughtering individuals, shots of plants that have been reduced to ruin, and multiple descriptions of all the people he’s killed. A several points the Surfer breaks down out of sheer horror of even trying to conceive an atrocity of this scale.
And considering he’s a one off antagonist of the week I think it shouldn’t be an issues.
Conclusion:
Well I have to be honest, as much as I love Marvel comics I never expected I'd ever get to proposal anyone for them, let alone from the actual 616. But looking over I can’t see any reason for the Overlord not to qualify.
So what do you think?
Edited by MGD107 on Dec 6th 2021 at 1:30:47 AM
Leaning yes on Rakkhal, but the fact the non-mutated Rakkhal is a normal child makes me VERY, VERY wary.
For some reason, I'm reminded of how Pericles doesn't count, because when the Entity is destroyed he become happy.
Edited by ACW on Dec 6th 2021 at 4:43:12 AM
Rakkhal
So who's the oldest publicized marvel 616 cm. I don't mean recurring guys like Red Skull who are still around but the minor issue ones.
@Scraggle: Oh man. An actual Zaunite cm. I love that location so to give it one is great.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Wait actually ACW brings up a good point. This is very similar to the situation that got Pericles disqualified. Both characters are awful and irredeemable in the series but they have an alternate timeline version where they aren't corrupted where it is shown they are a good person.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 6th 2021 at 1:47:07 AM
ACW: Well I feel that's a bit different, the point of the series was the entity had been influencing and corrupting people in the area for centuries. They didn't know it, but they were being manipulated by it.
In this case whilst his mutations are described as pared with incredibly savagery, its never suggested that the Overlord suffers from any impaired morals. Its just a matter that since childhood he's been powerful enough to do whatever he wants. We get shots of him growing from terrorising the fellow kids by just scaring them, to causing car crashes and trampling people as he gets older.
In the new time line Rakkhal was just an ordinary kid, who never succumbed to the temptation of power.
Edited by MGD107 on Dec 6th 2021 at 1:49:11 AM
Rakkhal
This past weekend, I graduated from college. I'm a free man now... well, until I have to start living out on my own, pay taxes, etc.
So to celebrate, how about my first ever Marvel Comics candidate, curtesy of Scrags.
What Is the Work?
Captain America. Y’all know who he is.
Specifically, we’ll be looking at the Captain America Comics from the early 1940s. These comics were anthologies, with Cap and his kid sidekick Bucky Barnes often fighting Nazis and other kinds of villains of the week in numerous short stories. While the Nazis fought by Cap were your typical Nazi baddies, one minor villain stood out amongst even them.
Who Is he?
Pepo Laroc, from Issue #5 (specifically the short story “The Terror That Was Devil’s Island”), is an obese Frenchman who runs the titular Devil’s Island like a deadly prison.
What has he done?
Collaborating with the Nazis upon their takeover of France to secure his position as warden and do whatever he wanted with his island prison, Laroc often starves his prisoners and engages in extreme acts of brutality in his special torture room, frequently torturing his prisoners to his liking.
Upon acquiring Steve and Bucky’s friend Tom (a pilot who was tasked to help the French to fight against the Nazi’s occupation), Laroc has him starved and beaten for a year, to the point where, upon giving him the chance to see Steve and Bucky, Tom is too frightened to admit he was abused in front of Laroc.
Upon Steve and Bucky discovering Laroc’s torture room, which has two skulls lying on the ground, Laroc, in the process of whipping Tom to his pleasure, sends Captain down to his pet sharks while he attempts to kill the young Bucky. Luckily, Captain’s able to escape and save Bucky in the nick of time.
And then that’s it. Tom’s freed and the French are saved, but Laroc’s fate remains unknown to this day.
Redeeming Qualities?
None.
Heinousness?
While an ultimately minor villain in the Cap’s decades-long lifetime, Laroc stands out certainly in this early era of comics for his torture chamber, his cruelty displayed in vivid detail (well, for the time anyway), and for how much he stood out from the competition. The narration makes very good note of how evil he is, and the fact that he’s just some guy willing to collaborate with the Nazis just to indulge in his own sadism, and is even willing to kill a child for kicks helps him stand out even more.
Conclusion
I think he’s a keep.
It's Spooky Month!So it's less that it corrupted him that a case of Might Makes Right? I'll give a CAUTIOUS yes if that's the case.
BTW, for League of Legends image...Infernal Mordekaiser
?
That is a fair point. Though the thing is from what I know Pericles isn't shown to suffer from impaired agency either he was just corrupted by the Evil Entity which doesn't exactly mean he has no choice in turning evil. I am not outright downvoting but I do feel this is concerning.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 6th 2021 at 1:49:47 AM
Rakkhal.
Okay, I’m feeling lucky.
Who is The Grim Knight?
Lacking the one redeeming trait of his comics counterpart, The Grim Knight, like canon, is a Bruce Wayne who shot and killed the mugger who killed his parents. Also like that Bruce Wayne, he eventually devolved into a sadistic bully only killing because he liked to do so. While we aren’t given major details on what went down on his Earth, when we meet him he’s sitting in a Fallout Shelter because he had nuked his world to oblivion.
Joining Barbatos cause to escape the world he destroyed, The Grim Knight was the last recruit for the Dark Knights. After laying siege to Gotham, The Grim Knight abducted hundreds of thousands of men, civilians, GCPD, even ones from Arkham and Blackgate, and pitted them against one other in fights to the death. Sometimes they’d be fair, sometimes he put civilians against the likes of Bane, The Joker, Mr. Freeze (he was threatening Nora) and Zsasz just to watch them get slaughtered. Eventually confronted by Batman, The Grim Knight puts him in a 4-way match between Bane, The Joker, Mr. Freeze and Zsasz. Zsasz is killed by Bane, but Batman manages to convince Bane, The Joker and Freeze to surrender. They and the rest of the criminals overpower The Grim Knight. In an attempt to save his life, he attempts to out Batman’s identity, but he is frozen by The Joker (who snatched Freeze’s gun) and his body shattered by Bane, ensure he couldn’t tell and no one would be able to see he’s Bruce.
Excuses or Mitigating Factors?
Neither. He makes it clear he doesn’t give a damn about his parents anymore and there is no mention of an Alfred.
Heinousness?
Definitely the difficult part, he’s not the first to destroy his world, but he lacked the crazy preparation and the powers that The Batman who Laughs did. Plus his use of nuclear annihilation mixed with him forcing men to fight to the death? I think that may be enough, but I’ll leave that to you guys.
Final Thoughts?
Eh. I’m not too sure, but we’ll see.
Pepo
Ah back before Bucky was a badass Anti-Hero
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Pepo Larco and the Grim Knight.
ACW: Yep he boasts about being the strongest in existence multiple times, even declaring that by being a mutant it is his right and destiny to destroy all that is weaker.
Ordeaux: Really? I seem to recall it being presented as him being unknowing steered into it. But if that's the case, it honestly sounds less of an argument against the Overlord and more of an argument for Pericles. Perhaps he's worth you taking another look at? Or has the ruling been conclusive?
Jackie: Congratulations on graduating.
Edited by MGD107 on Dec 6th 2021 at 1:56:33 AM
Yes to Pepo and the Grim Knight.
As to Pericles...it's been awhile since I've seen it, and I don't know how he'd fit under our new agency rules, but the fact that he's COMPLETELY different with the Entity gone makes me think he got corrupted. I'd be a pretty firm no unless somewhat had convincing evidence otherwise.
I'll affirm my yes for the Overlord though.
Edited by ACW on Dec 6th 2021 at 4:56:45 AM
It's not just him
That thing affected the entire town. When its gone. All the masked characters are now just normal people with their crimes not having happened.
Edited by miraculous on Dec 6th 2021 at 1:58:07 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I will admit I have never seen the show but from what I have heard it is not made super clear how The Evil Entity corrupted Pericles. And corruption doesn't always mean that the villain was unable to choose their path for instance if their dark desires were taken advantage of and brought to the surface. I will fully admit I could be wrong but the situation sounds really similar to what I have heard.
Pepo Laroc
Rakkhal
Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 6th 2021 at 5:00:19 AM
Watch me destroying my country

Sure to The Batman Who Laughs. Late yes to the Omega Red image.