During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
DC has had a crossover with basically everything, even Planet of the Apes for some reason.
Oh. I meant to say Keller killed for petty reasons, NOT Beecher. Lol. They seem to be staying, but I think Keller atleast fails the heinous standard since he isn't a child killer or rapist (as far as I remembered) unlike the worst criminals in the show.
Edited by Enigmatic_Mastermind on Nov 25th 2021 at 1:50:28 AM
Thats a case of Offscreen Villainy, as well as with Yuri and L'italien.
Perhaps, regarding Keller there should be a list on Write a Complete Monster or something about how not to write a CM (like how there is a list on Write An MB with some characters qualifying as M Bs but is considered poorly-written ones). Like, don't make the character 100% evil in the 11th hour or the audience will be annoyed at the inconsistent character writing rather than being genuinely terrified of them.
Edited by Enigmatic_Mastermind on Nov 25th 2021 at 2:20:00 AM
Can we drop Keller, Mastermind? This is coming to the point of Complaining About Shows You Don't Like which we do not want to be devoting any part of wikispace to and you're quite literally the only guy complaining about his status right now.
We don't need to be inviting discussion on how "not" to write a CM. That's not in this thread's purview. If MB is doing similar with its sandboxes, frankly, I think the offending sections should be purged on that end, but that's a matter for that thread to discuss.
Edited by Scraggle on Nov 25th 2021 at 3:31:27 AM
Keep the Oz guys.
No to the post-spamming. It's not nice.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 25th 2021 at 5:33:32 AM
Before I get back to my Marvel, I got a John Carpenter guy we missed!
What's the setting?
Prince of Darkness is the second of Carpenter's "Apocalypse Trilogy" (comprised of The Thing and In The Mouth of Madness). It's Carpenter's take on Religious Horror, by means of the Cosmic Horror Story; multiple college students are brought aboard a research assignment conducted by Professor Howard Birack and a priest played by Donald Sutherland as they investigate a monastery with a strange, massive canister of green liquid...
What has Satan done?
The eponymous Prince of Darkness is introduced as a Leaking Can of Evil—the aforementioned huge vat of green liquid—dating back seven million years. The green liquid, itself, is Satan's base form; Satan is an Eldritch Abomination, the son of an even worse abomination called the Anti-God currently trapped in an antimatter universe. Satan desires to bring forth its father and bring about an unspeakable apocalypse among mankind.
Satan begins to exert his influence over the area, possessing dozens of homeless people and driving them into homicidal frenzies, slaughtering everyone who tries to approach the monastery with metal spikes and box cutters as Satan watches through its chosen hosts. Satan slowly possesses and kills every single person in the monastery, beginning with university student Susan and killing the others one after another. Those it can't personally kill or possess it drives to madness and suicide.
Satan finally takes its chosen host—university student Kelly—and reduces her to a rotting corpse, trying to bring its father the Anti-God through to Earth through a mirror. One of the heroes drags Satan into the antimatter dimension and Donald Sutherland's priest destroys the mirror, trapping them both in the antimatter dimension forever. Maybe.
Any mitigating factors?
The big issue is that Satan isn't the big, horned Manipulative Bastard as we're all familiar with; he's presented as a malign, incorporeal, borderline-unknowable force for most of the film who acts by the proxy of emotionless, mindless hosts. What differentiates Satan from its even more eldritch father, though, is that Carpenter actually does personify Satan in a way that's less "eldritch" and more "totally evil." What little dialogue it has is dedicated to mocking the protagonists on the inevitability of their fate, gloating "I LIVE!" and telling the protagonists that there's nothing their gods and their saviors can do to save them through a computer screen, and through its possessed victims. It even has the chance for an Evil Laugh or two when it possesses Kelly and is minutes away from destroying humanity.
Is it the most complex version of Satan we have? No. But the tidbits we get help convince me Satan's less alien and more...well, Satan. Pure evil, in a form we can recognize, the son of an Eldritch Abomination or not.
Conclusion?
Kinda tricky due to its nature, but yes, keep green liquid Satan.
Satan.
And now, my first CM candidate here on TV Tropes, which is what I was mentioning when I said there would be another candidate
from Cars to be proposed. He's from a movie I haven't seen for several years until recently and have also seen in theaters back in 2014, and he's a national park superintendent who goes by the name of Cad Spinner.
What is the Work?
Planes: Fire & Rescue is a 2014 film that takes place in Disney and Pixar's Cars franchise, except it's made by DisneyToon Studios and not by Pixar. Here, Dusty Crophopper, who beat the Wings Around the Globes Rally against Ripslinger back in the first movie, is a cropduster plane who is now a world champion. However, his gearbox malfunctions, so he goes on a test flight where he crashes and causes a fire. As a result, Propwash Junction is closed, and his friend Mayday is set to be blacklisted if there isn't another firefighter. To lend a helping wheel, Dusty flies off to Piston Peak National Park where he trains to become a firefighter under Blade Ranger, the Chief of the Piston Peak Air Attack Squadron.
Who is the Candidate and What Has He Done?
The candidate in question is Cad Spinner, who's been the Superintendent of Piston Peak National Park for five years and has a habit of hosting big parties and country clubs in his massive Grand Fusel Lodge. At first glance, it seems as if he's a genuinely friendly (if not somewhat careless and occasionally rude) guy who has nothing more in mind than keeping his tourists happy and giving them an enjoyable experience at Piston Peak; except…
…that's not true at all.
No, Cad is a greedy, egotistical, and even sociopathic businesscar who's only out to gain a good reputation from his tourists and keep the Grand Fusel Lodge safe and secured from any potential wildfires that dare cross its path, even when the lives of many are put at risk. His attitude, when confronted with his problems by the firefighters and his workers alike, is very It's All About Me, and refusing to change himself for the better, and when it comes to his customers potentially killed by the wildfire, well, we'll get into that later on.
He's first seen when he welcomes tourists into his lodge. Eventually, a thunderstorm hits and causes multiple fires that merge into a big one, but the firefighters are able to keep it contained, something that becomes very important later on. Cad is later seen following a training session Dusty did under Blade's supervision, and Cad complains to Blade that while dumping mud on campers makes them sad, inviting them to the Fusel Lodge makes them happy, whereas Blade tells him that he's invited way too many campers into the lodge and the firefighters need to train. He then immediately sees Dusty, who apologizes for causing the mess, and Cad talks about all the procedures he took to protect the Lodge, even as Blinky tries to change his mind that the Lodge isn't everything that is important.
During the ensuing conversation, Lil' Dipper mentions to Dusty that "[Cad] got the park service to shift 80% of [the firefighters'] budget to his lodge restoration project," which shows how uncaring he is towards them. Just then, Cad gets a phone call from one of his workers about an elderly car getting him a special pair of glasses, then yells at them that they should fire her for being unable to do so. He then drives off, but not before insulting Blade.
That night, at the big country club party, the Secretary of the Interior comes to visit and asks Cad about the safety measures taken at Piston Peak, including the ones about the park's wildlife. Cad tells him that there will be party animals if there are enough customers. He then sees Dusty again and tells him that he's expecting a promotion from the Secretary. The next morning, it's revealed that Cad's VIPs (or "very important planes") flew too close to the burn area, blowing embers in all directions. As a result, the wildfire previously contained by the firefighters has now spun out of control, and now there are two wildfires.
Maru is given orders by Blade to warn Cad that the wildfire is hours away from the Fusel Lodge, meaning all the customers will have to evacuate. However, when Cad gets the warning, he outright refuses, saying that he isn't going to evacuate just so he can be safe and that he's been working on the Fusel Lodge for five years. Some of the tourists overhear it with concerned faces. Cad eventually gives everyone a speech about his new unveiling, but when the firetruck Pulaski and the latter's assistant Rake talk about how the tourists are in danger, Cad gets mad at them even as they and Ol' Jammer warn him that the tourists need to evacuate, and he reveals the unveiling, which turns out to be just him next to the Fusel Lodge.
As everyone starts to evacuate because of the growing wildfire, Cad doesn't do anything except tell them they can all come back the following year and that he'll be there to see them. At nightfall, the wildfires have spread all over Piston Peak, and Cad sees that the Lusel Lodge isn't getting enough water.
This is where he gets nasty.
Cad orders the concierge André to reroute the main water supply to the roof sprinklers of the Grand Fusel Lodge, but André revolts against his plan to save the Fusel Lodge, telling him that the firefighters need the water so they can make the retardant to fight the wildfire. Cad then flat-out tells him that he doesn't care, threatening to do it himself if André doesn't do it. André refuses, so Cad reroutes the water himself with relish… knowing full-well he's dooming hundreds of his own tourists in the process. The last time he's seen in Piston Peak is when the firefighters, Dusty included, go out to fight the raging fires, and Cad looks up at them with disdain.
Eventually, even though the lodge remains intact, Cad is subsequently blacklisted by the Secretary because of him rerouting the water, and Ol' Jammer is made the new Superintendent of Piston Peak. The mid-credits scene of the movie reveals that Cad was relocated to Death Valley where he is now forced to work as a park ranger, welcoming guests as he is beamed from the extreme heat temperatures. Such a nice life.
Does he have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None whatsoever. Cad may seem genuinely nice to the tourists as they prepare to enjoy their stay at the Fusel Lodge, but this is only to gain a good reputation because he's really not a nice guy at all. He's Faux Affably Evil as he is mean and insulting to the Air Attack Squadron and even his own workers, as he insults Blade at one point ("[Dusty]'s even more famous than you, Blazin' Blade!") and only compliments Dusty upon seeing him to make himself look good in front of him.
His workers are treated with disrespect as he threatens to fire an elderly vehicle for being unable to buy him crystal glasses, and when three more of them try to get him to evacuate the tourists ("You're a glorified bellboy, you're an overpriced sprinkler, and you're… well, old, and you have a dumb hat on.") And in the end, he leaves the tourists to die in the massive wildfire just so he can save his own lodge from being destroyed, and looks at the firefighters scornfully as they go to fight the fires, even Dusty.
His actions are played completely seriously as he got fired because of rerouting all of the water to the lodge, and in Death Valley, while he welcomes the audience, it's made clear that he is not enjoying his job as he's complaining about how hot it is out there, and was demoted to a lower position instead of promoted as he had hoped. When someone's engine stalls, he does nothing to help said car and instead smiles nervously at the audience, as if he's expecting them to not like him. Given how much of a Hate Sink he already is, the mid-credits scene hammers the point that he got exactly what he deserves and his punishment is completely justified.
Does he meet the Heinousness Standard?
The heinous standard is already pretty up there as in the original movie, in Skipper's flashback, imperial forces serving the Axis Powers are seen targeting Skipper's crew in World War II as they are all killed, save for him as he was rescued after his only mission proved to be a failure. However, those specific ones don't do much besides that, and evil historical WWII figures like Adolf Hitler, even though the scene implies their existence in the series, don't make a single appearance nor are mentioned whatsoever.
Also, even though the Planes movies were made by DisneyToon and the Cars movies are made by Pixar, they still take place in the same canon, so let's also include characters from those movies as well. From Cars 2, there's Sir Miles Axlerod and Professor Zündapp. Both of them are behind the Family-Unfriendly Deaths of two spy cars (Leland Turbo was crushed into a cube while Rod "Torque" Redline exploded upon the impact of the electromagnetic pulse with the Allinol still inside him), and the torture of dozens of World Grand Prix racers as they were hit by the pulse with their engines burst into flames and resulted in them hospitalized. Both also attempted a massive kill count as Axlerod planted a wide-range bomb into Mater's hood while Zündapp attempted to detonate it.
However, Cad has way fewer resources than all of the above as he's a simple superintendent of a national park, and doesn't have terrorists working for him like Axlerod and Zündapp did. He goes the worst he can with his resources as he puts the tourists' lives at even greater stake when he reroutes the main water supply to the Fusel Lodge even though the firefighters need to make retardant to fight the wildfire. He doesn't intentionally start the wildfires, nor did he plan for his VIPs to make two big ones, but what he does do is take advantage of the situation and knowingly, deliberately put hundreds of his own tourists at risk of burning alive in the fires to save the Fusel Lodge, and he's happy at what he's done and is scornful at seeing the firefighters afterward. Here's the full conversation between Cad and André:
- Cad: Hey! We're not getting enough water on the lodge! Reroute the main waterline to the roof sprinklers!
André: Oh, no! No, no, no, no! The firefighters need that water to make retardant!
Cad: How do you know that?
André: I'm the concierge. It's my job to know everything.
Cad: I DON'T CARE! Do you work for them? No; you work for me, what's-your-name. Now, are you going to do it, or do I have to do it MYSELF?
Keep in mind that, while he claimed to the tourists that "It's a small little fire" in the afternoon, this conversation he had with André takes place afterward at night when the smoke from the flames completely enveloped the sky. This means that the wildfire grew much, much larger, and Cad still rerouted the main waterline to the Fusel Lodge when all the tourists have left the lodge and were already evacuating. Worse still is that there were hundreds of tourists in the evacuation, meaning Cad was willing to leave all of them to their doom if it meant having the Fusel Lodge for himself.
Also, the bad guys who have even fewer resources than him don't do nearly enough to qualify for this trope. Chick Hicks is just an arrogant racer who caused crashes so he alone can win the race and damaged Strip "the King" Weathers so badly he is unable to do more racing. The Delinquent Road Hazards are just jerks who caused Mack to fall asleep on the Route 66 highway. Ripslinger is slightly worse than Chick Hicks, but he's a generic "kill the hero" baddie as he only wanted to have Dusty killed by his minions, Ned and Zed, so he can win the Wings Around the Globe Rally the fourth time in a row. Finally, Jackson Storm, who's arguably not even a villain, does even less, only ramming Cruz Ramirez on the side so he can win the Florida 500.
Final Verdict?
I think Cad crosses the finish line to qualify as this. He's an uncaring braggart who only acts nice to tourists so that he could be seen as a likable car, but is willing to leave hundreds of them to die in the wildfires just to keep the Grand Fusel Lodge shielded from the flames because of the water sprinklers. It's one Moral Event Horizon crossing, but it's an extremely heinous crossing that shows just how little he sees the lives of other vehicles, especially when it comes to being burned alive, and he does enough with his resources as the bad guys with fewer resources don't even come close to what he did.
Just an empty void…

Scraggle: Shit, I forgot all about that guy
You can EP him if you want.