During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Been thinking more about Ronan from further posts, and I'm reconsidering a bit.
I think one problem I'm having is that he and the other Kree are kind of ill-characterized, such that their opposition to Xandar comes off as evil for the sake of evil. It would be a lot easier if we knew that Xandar did something that provoked the war and/or that Ronan's family was killed in circumstances that were sympathetic for them and less sympathetic for Xandar.
And I don't think I am reaching to note that the two times he mentions his ancestors, it immediately transfers in to standard genocidal supervillain talk.
However, I remembered another instance which lines up pretty closely with my understanding of Ronan's situation, and is clearly sympathetic for the villain there. In Tigana, the wizard Brandin uses magic to Un-person a country and inflicts a Fate Worse than Death on one of its princes after that country kills his son. The reason why the country killed Brandin's son is that Brandin and his son were in the process of invading said country and were killed in battle.
Now Brandin is Affably Evil and most of the time seems like a great guy (big contrast to Ronan here), but while his actions involving his son involve a huge amount of Moral Myopia, no one doubts his sincerity.
I think my "problem" with Ronan is because of his remove from the ancestors he lost and because while I'm not trying to ignore any sympathetic motives, but it's just that his unsympathetic motives so predominate that they seem to swallow up any sympathetic ones (hence why I argued that his "real motive" is genocidal tyranny).
I definitely don't agree with Fighteer's characterization of the movie showing Ronan as a victim, but I think I should give more credence to Thanos legitimately wanting to avenge his ancestors (even if his other motivations are not legitimate).
edited 10th Aug '14 9:13:56 AM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wikiI really don't get why so many people take Ronan's words about his forefather literally. To me, the whole Xandar/Kree conflict is reminiscent of something like Israel/Palestine, where both sides have been at war for such a long time that fanatics like Ronan will do anything to justify continuing the poisonous cycle of hatred between the two cultures. He saw the peace treaty as an affront to "true" Kree heritage, and it always reads to me that whenever Ronan mentioned his father or grandfather, he was talking symbolically.
I've seen Boys From Brazil.
from me on the Mengele of the movie. No doubt.
Speaking of which I'd like to request something. Anime & Manga is getting close to the character limit, so for the time being, could new entries or writeups only be added to the sandbox?
Probably will need to be eventually (even if we don't eliminate subpages) though.
Well, I've worked on the smaller series for Anime And Manga Subpages. Let me know whether they're good to go, and whether they should be put on the main Sandbox or just subbed out.
edited 10th Aug '14 12:28:43 PM by ACW
Mengele has my
.
I still thinking that Torres qualifies, but because I brought her up I think my vote is irrelevant.
And assuming we haven't dropped the Blackenstien example, anyone else yay or nay on Malcomb ?
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."OK, why is Moriarty being re-added to Elementary when her sole Season 2 appearance kind of debunked her status as one? She cares about her daughter and, in a sick fashion, she cares about Holmes too, and the "it's not REAL love!" excuse doesn't hold up when you consider that other villains have been banned from this trope for showing equally selfish love toward others, and sometimes for even less.
Not to mention the one who added her to start with is literally only going by Season 1 and using their own subjective Alternate Character Interpretation when confronted with the facts from Season 2, which generally means that this is a case of "I hate this character for doing that one thing and so they must stay on this trope no matter what they go on to do later that contradicts it!"
edited 10th Aug '14 12:55:49 PM by CharlestonMan
Well, first off, it has to at least be discussed here before an example is added or removed. Saying "DO NOT ADD MORIARTY, the issue is still being debated, and Season 2 has evidence to the contrary." Well, it's not been discussed here.
Second, see Ambar's response
.
edited 10th Aug '14 12:57:04 PM by ACW
@ Beast: Oh no, you always get a vote if you bring a character up. It's just usually assumed that the original poster is in favor of keep anyway unless they expressly state otherwise (e.g. an example they were unsure of but thought should be discussed anyway).
The thing is, Torres's villainy sounds fairly generic for a witch. In particular I don't think you can call out turning people into animals as an And I Must Scream fate when (If I'm getting this correctly from your post) there is no evidence that they're at all aware about their state. Also, most of the people she threatens to kill are the heroes, which every villain does. Her minimal track record and the fact that she's partly Played for Laughs makes me seriously doubt her credentials.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"![]()
Actually I get your point. In the show when someone turns back from being a frog, it kind of varies in memory, in the show we see one of her prisoners turn back but has no memory, but that was just one person, there was also the character Maddie who Torres turns into and back from a frog in an interrogation scene, and Maddie had a vauge memory of being a frog (although every time she was turned it lasted about a few seconds), and there's her son, who cleary remembers his time as a frog, and Lilly, Emma's mentor, who also remembers being turned into a frog. But what ceiled the deal for me was the fact the people she tried to kill where teenagers, and she says she plans on killing children too. And as I mentioned, she is played seriously for the most part, but there have been other CM's that had black comedy moments for them to.
And looking at the main page for the new Ninja turtles movie, I think Shredder was labeled a GDV, and looking at it's entry, I kind of agree, but we'll just have to wait for a sequel.
edited 10th Aug '14 1:30:05 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

edited 10th Aug '14 9:08:44 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"