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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#288976: Nov 14th 2021 at 7:38:26 PM

Okay, answering my own question, seems Escobar hates child molesters.

What about Carver? Character page didn't help.

Also, please add the Law and Order header to the Drafts.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#288977: Nov 14th 2021 at 7:45:02 PM

Escobar loves his daughter, who was molested. Escobar is appropriately horrified and furious. The Carver cares about his sister.

Verger is considerably toned down in the show, btw

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#288978: Nov 14th 2021 at 7:51:11 PM

[tup] Dodge & Teddy

It's Spooky Month!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#288979: Nov 14th 2021 at 7:55:33 PM

Yes to Teddy, and really dig the new descript, STAR!

Fucking love Hannibal, and I can say that the only one-off characters I can even vaguely imagine landing are Lawrence Wells and Clark Ingram, tbh. I don't recall Budge having much going for him in bodycount, Eva the Kidnapper I feel like seemed genuinely unwell, meanwhile both Lawrence and Clark have some of the higher bodycounts from memory and are purely pieces of shit...Mason I feel might actually warrant rechecking given loosening of OV rulings, being the...horrid bastard he is and having at least one onscreen sequence of tormenting some poor kid emotionally and psychologically for his tears lmao

[down] That's just Lockdown legitimately not caring enough to participate, he's a hired gun, not someone who has a stake in the war. As soon as his payment and reputation is in danger, he comes right back into the fray.

Edited by Ravok on Nov 14th 2021 at 8:14:51 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#288980: Nov 14th 2021 at 7:56:40 PM

I was looking through the Transformers page and saw that Lockdown from the film series counted as a CM but his character page has this that stuck out to me: "Punch-Clock Villain: Don't get us wrong; Lockdown is as brutal as any antagonist we've seen before; but once he claims his target, he's simply going to leave Earth to collect his payment from his client. He's not interested in the war at all."

Does that negate it? Or is it more of a "not my problem" scenario.

Also [tup] Dodge & Teddy

[up] So a CM can be a "Punch-Clock Villain" if they only show care towards the job?

Edited by WetFlannels on Nov 14th 2021 at 4:23:09 PM

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#288981: Nov 14th 2021 at 8:14:53 PM

I can give Verger a look, 43 was encouraging me to do so...issue is, he does love traumatizing kids, but he's not a child molester in the show proper.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#288982: Nov 14th 2021 at 8:35:50 PM

@ACW: I added the header to the drafts - if you wanna tinker with potholes or words, feel free, what I've got is just the "guideline"

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#288983: Nov 14th 2021 at 8:39:34 PM

[tup] to Ian Mercer, Becker, King Izak Meleski, the Law & Order header, Dodge, and Theodora "Teddy" Rowles. Keep Lord Cutler Beckett.

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#288984: Nov 14th 2021 at 9:08:37 PM

[tup] Dodge and Teddy

No one from Hannibal counts. The heinous standard is just through the roof. Hannibal himself has probably the biggest rap sheet in the series, and he can't qualify for various reasons. All the other villains top each other each time a new one shows up.

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
Kirby-Israel Since: Nov, 2021
#288985: Nov 14th 2021 at 9:10:46 PM

[tup]Mercer and Law&Order duo

And Keep Beckett.

Also, from what I could tell, the 2nd Aldoron quote seemed to be overall accepted while the first one wasn't.

What about the proposed Acnologia quote?

I apologize for asking again, but I would just like some responses so that this indecisiveness can end.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#288986: Nov 14th 2021 at 9:19:09 PM

[up]not too keen on the Acnologia quote

Also just for reference, quotes aren’t our no.1 priority, so we may not be so keen if there not for a page.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#288987: Nov 14th 2021 at 9:27:34 PM

[tup] Salazar, Mercer, Becker, Izak, Dodge, Teddy.

Oh boy, Hannibal is my favorite TV show of all time. IIRC, Wells comes real close to matching Hannibal in evilness, but he's still shocked to discover that he murdered his own son.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#288988: Nov 14th 2021 at 9:49:04 PM

[tup] for Dodge and Theodora "Teddy" Rowles.

Next Alex Rider candidate.

Ark Angel takes place directly after the events of Scorpia. Alex is recovering in the hospital after a failed assassination attempt from the fifth book. While in the hospital, he runs into Paul Drevin, the son of a multibillionaire. One night, four men infiltrate the hospital and try to kidnap Paul, but once again, Chronic Hero Syndrome bites Alex right in his bum, and he ends up getting kidnapped by an eco-terrorist group known as Force Three. And the leader of these "freedom fighters" isn't the Well-Intentioned Extremist he paints himself out to be...

Who Is He?

Kaspar, aka "Magnus Payne," is the leader of Force Three. He's also secretly The Dragon working alongside Nikolei Drevin, Paul's father.

What Has He Done?

Prior to the story, Kaspar and Force Three were responsible for various atrocities around the world in the name of "saving Earth" from humanity's damage. Such crimes include assassinating a journalist for criticizing Force Three, kidnapping and murdering two members of the Atomic Energy Commission, causing various bombings in six different countries, and destroying a car manufacturing plant in Detroit. The book opens with Kaspar calling businessman Max Webber after he gave a conference declaring why Force Three is so dangerous. Not long after, the phone Webber is using blows up by his head, and Force Three quickly claims responsibility. The plot begins when four of Kaspar's minions are sent to kidnap Paul Drevin, but they inadvertently kidnap Alex instead. While held prisoner, Kaspar introduces himself to "Paul," explaining that he abducted him so his father will give Force Three one million dollars, all of which was punishment for Nikolei constructing oil pipelines across the world. Kaspar takes out a knife, ready to cut off "Paul's" finger, when Alex reveals he's not Paul Drevin. Once Kaspar finds out the wrong teenager was kidnapped, he sets the tower Alex is held in on fire, although Alex escapes before he perishes.

Kaspar conveniently disappears from the plot for a long time, and Force Three doesn't get up to much besides killing the football (or soccer for us North American individuals) captain of a football team Nikolei owns. Alex himself only has one bad run-in with the same Force Three goons who attacked him at the hospital, but besides that, he spends a majority of his time with Paul and Nikolei. But then he finds out Nikolei is one of the world's biggest criminal financers and that he's connected to Force Three somehow. While Alex is on Flamingo Bay, one of Nikolei's islands, his head of security, Magnus Payne, finds out Alex is a member of MI-6 and convinces Nikolei to have him killed. This fails of course, largely due to undercover CIA agent Tamara Knight's interference. As the two investigate Nikolei further, Tamara trips an alarm, and Magnus Payne has the two captured. And it's here where Nikolei reveals the whole conspiracy behind Force Three.

It doesn't exist. Nikolei created it as a scapegoat. His master plan is to blow up the space hotel, Ark Angel, because its construction has put him billions of dollars into debt. And various government officials in Washington D.C. have mounted a case against him in the Pentagon. He was gonna kill two birds with one stone: destroy the hotel that put him in debt, and use the falling debris to take out the Pentagon and most of Washington D.C. because I guess this can happen if done properly because space physics according to the info the author explains in this novel but I digress. Immediately after, Magnus kills the four nameless Force Three goons so Nikolei will have "proof" that the organization existed. As for Magnus himself? He's actually Kaspar in disguise. Similar to Conrad, Kaspar is fully aware of Nikolei's deeds and could not give a damn about the hundreds of thousands—potentially millions—of people who will die after Ark Angel is destroyed. Kaspar locks up Alex alongside Tamara Knight and leaves in a rocket ship to go set the bomb within Ark Angel.

Towards the end of the book, after Alex and Tamara are freed and Nikolei is killed, Alex is sent to the space hotel to set the bomb in a specific spot of the hotel so that once it blows up, the falling debris won't land in Washington D.C. But while there, he runs into Kaspar again. The two of them fight for a brief moment, and it ends with Alex knocking Kaspar backwards, and unintentionally impaling the man in his neck with his own knife.

Mitigating Factors?

Nah. Like Conrad, he's loyal to Nikolei, but absolutely nothing about their interactions indicates it's anything more than business. And his whole thing about saving the ecosystem is bullshit, considering Force Three was a hoax to begin with.

Heinous Standard Factors?

Okay so...very divided here. On one hand, no redeeming qualities. He was responsible for multiple bombings, had a few journalists assassinated, tried to kidnap a teenage boy, and nearly killed another teenager on various occasions. He murdered his own loyal minions and, overall, was more than happy to blow up a space station knowing that its destruction would destroy most of Washington D.C. and potentially kill millions.

But this is not the first time something of this scale has happened. Hell, look at Conrad for example, who was willing to help his boss destroy half of a continent to turn him into a Russian president. Now I will point out, besides Conrad, none of the other Dragons from this franchise reach this scope, except maybe Nile. But nevertheless, there are other nasty villains in the franchise who try to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Granted, Kaspar gets points for creativty (a Colony Drop in an Alex Rider book? C'mon now).

I'm looking at the current keepers now (in terms of the books). Sayle counts for trying to murder thousands of children for a petty reason via smallpox outbreak. Julia Rothman works for a terrorist organization and tried to murder lots of children because money and she's just that evil. Razim doesn't have the biggest bodycount, but he absolutely succeeds in quality over quantity and was working for the same organization at Rothman. Conrad was willing to help his boss destroy a chunk of Europe and had already blown up several bombs prior.

So Kaspar is...wiggled somewhere in the middle. He's not specifically trying to kill children, but destroying all of D.C. would mean lots of kids would die in the confusion. He also tries to kill millions—not just a village or a small town, but a heavily populated American city and arguably the center of the country's government. And similar to Conrad, he had his own list of crimes prior to the novel's events involving assassinations and bombings.

Soooooooooo...pass-ish?

Final Verdict?

I'm really unsure here.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288989: Nov 14th 2021 at 10:05:12 PM

Unsure on Kaspar, he does seem really awful but at the same time, the heinous standard just seems too high for me to be properly sure of him.

Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#288990: Nov 14th 2021 at 10:21:41 PM

[tup] Dodge & Teddy

No on kasper, heinous standard seems too much

[down] thanks for telling me, I must be blind since I didn’t see it in the discussions dates

[down][down] oh ok, thanks I’ll gladly do a collab

Edited by Mediawatcher on Nov 14th 2021 at 11:57:37 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#288991: Nov 14th 2021 at 10:23:01 PM

[up] I think someone snagged both of those already.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#288992: Nov 14th 2021 at 10:24:41 PM

I had mentioned watching Hazbin, but glad to split for Media.

For Kasper....mmm, narrow miss, but leaning nay

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 14th 2021 at 10:27:47 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#288993: Nov 14th 2021 at 10:26:02 PM

[up][up][up]I saw this post a while back, I forgot who said it, that wondered if Valentino could count in the future, on account of him being a sexually abusive pimp. So at least keep an eye out for him.

[tdown]Kaspar, who's neither a ghost or friendly

Edited by nwotyzal on Nov 14th 2021 at 10:30:59 AM

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#288994: Nov 14th 2021 at 10:28:24 PM

Just a suggestion but would it be useful to create a separate discussion page for CM images & Quotes?

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#288995: Nov 14th 2021 at 10:29:18 PM

There used to be a CM Quotes one but it got removed for being redundant.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#288996: Nov 14th 2021 at 11:29:46 PM

Has anyone reserved Go W Ragnorok or is that a series that won't be discussed

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Mediawatcher Since: Dec, 2015
#288997: Nov 14th 2021 at 11:31:17 PM

@nwotyzal

lighty mentioned Hazbin Hotel here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=9127.8#comment-228171

Depends on the heinous standard which just from the pilot is being set up to be pretty damn high, and that’s not even going into helluva boss

[up] lighty already claimed it

Edited by Mediawatcher on Nov 14th 2021 at 11:49:58 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#288998: Nov 15th 2021 at 12:10:21 AM

[tup]Teddy

Okay kasper is bad. But like considering this series has villains who have tried to wipe out countries or continent's. I don't think just trying to destroy Washington DC is enough (what did I just write). So going with [tdown]

Edited by miraculous on Nov 15th 2021 at 12:10:43 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RoyalCharger Since: Dec, 2019
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#289000: Nov 15th 2021 at 1:28:37 AM

[tup] Meleski, Dodge and Teddy. [tdown] Kaspar.


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